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Subject: Choice of language when playing with children rss

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Dutch Jones
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Well i finally introduced my six year old to this. Before i started i let her know that it was likely that daddy was going to beat her easily. She won 4-2blush

When playing i realised i didn't have a way to describe the units being killed. Obviously as she gets older i will make her understand about what happened and the sacrifice made by servicemen and women (then and now).
So the question is what language do you guys use with the youngsters that allows for a fun game but shields for that little bit longer? I really don't want to use killed or destroyed etc.
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Gunky Gamer
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When my kids were younger and first learned Memoir, I tended to use the language of chess, etc. and referred to capturing pieces. This made sense since they had been exposed to chess in various scenarios from quite young.

As they have gotten older, have started to learn a bit of history and about the world, and have taken more interest in the scenario descriptions, we've been able to talk more directly about what the game presents.
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James C
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I'd suggest "captured" as we say in chess.

Or perhaps "defeated" as in "my artillery defeats your infantry".
Defeated could be read as driven off / dispersed / caused to disband.

I play with my 7-year old boy -- tons of fun. But his language is already pretty coarse so we don't use euphemisms here (one of the "benefits" of public schooling - "socialization" is what they call it).
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Joseph
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Tell her there "Out", just like in tag. They get to rejoin the next time you play.

I've actually been thinking about trying this with my six year old as well.
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Dutch Jones
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Many thanks. All good suggestions. I'll try them out tomorrow on the rematch!
 
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dave
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How about that their moral is lower. After the last piece is gone, they 'break' (or some better word) and then they don't want to fight anymore and 'go home'. This is probably a better way to think about it anyways as it's more about having an effective fighting unit and less about killing guys--not too many battles with greater than 50% casualties.

And it's so very awesome that she beat you!
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Perhaps boys are different, but when my boy was 5, he was already using the words kill/dead in imaginary play. Since his sister was 2 years younger, she picked it up quickly. So, we just kill the enemy dead.
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David Kennedy
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darthnice wrote:
Perhaps boys are different...

No perhaps is necessary. For those who are confused, yes, boys are very different from little girls. Confusion on this point has led to much cultural decline.

darthnice wrote:
...but when my boy was 5, he was already using the words kill/dead in imaginary play. Since his sister was 2 years younger, she picked it up quickly. So, we just kill the enemy dead.

Hear! Hear! Skip the euphemisms. Dead is dead. If she's too young to handle that, she too young to play. Since she beat Daddy/Dutch, as well, clearly he needs to man up in more than one way.
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J. Emmett
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Professor X wrote:
I'd suggest "captured" as we say in chess.

Or perhaps "defeated" as in "my artillery defeats your infantry".
Defeated could be read as driven off / dispersed / caused to disband.

Exactly: a unit isn't necessarily killed to the man in Memoir '44 when it's defeated. If you really want to pick the wrong language for a young kid, tell her the unit has been rendered combat ineffective. whistle

Just because all their figures have been removed from the board doesn't mean they're all dead. They're just no longer a threat—they could have been shattered and taken prisoner; they could have too few unwounded soldiers fighting; they could have routed.

As you make me consider how I'll play M44 with my now-one-year-old, I think saying a defeated unit has surrendered and been captured (here're your prisoners (figure) for your victory strip) isn't just more palatable for a kid, but more representative of real war. Think of Red Army and Wehrmacht formations being taken prisoner by the hundreds of thousands on the Eastern Front.
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dave
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Gravey wrote:
Professor X wrote:
I'd suggest "captured" as we say in chess.

Or perhaps "defeated" as in "my artillery defeats your infantry".
Defeated could be read as driven off / dispersed / caused to disband.

Exactly: a unit isn't necessarily killed to the man in Memoir '44 when it's defeated. If you really want to pick the wrong language for a young kid, tell her the unit has been rendered combat ineffective. whistle

Just because all their figures have been removed from the board doesn't mean they're all dead. They're just no longer a threat—they could have been shattered and taken prisoner; they could have too few unwounded soldiers fighting; they could have routed.

As you make me consider how I'll play M44 with my now-one-year-old, I think saying a defeated unit has surrendered and been captured (here're your prisoners (figure) for your victory strip) isn't just more palatable for a kid, but more representative of real war. Think of Red Army and Wehrmacht formations being taken prisoner by the hundreds of thousands on the Eastern Front.
Yes, exactly right. RCI is a good term. This is what I was getting at with the morale. And I don't think the rules refer to 'killing' anything--score a hit, remove a figure, that's it. (I think I've read a bunch too many posts (not this one) about people bitching about all the killing going on in '44.)
 
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StevenE Smooth Sailing...
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I wondered about this too.

After a roll my son said in a blase voice... "he's dead... I win"
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Willow Pearson
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I still have to tread carefully with my finance (of 26) with M44; playing a wargame with her w/o tears over losses is like IED disposal...

On the other hand, I play Tides of Iron with a few of my Nephews; the reactions from casualties range from "out" to words that'd make a COD player cringe, so just go with what you feel is appropriate, you'll find a natural level soon enough.

Getting them into boardgames young far outweighs any crises of terminology anyway...
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Harold Tessmann III
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Gravey wrote:
As you make me consider how I'll play M44 with my now-one-year-old, I think saying a defeated unit has surrendered and been captured (here're your prisoners (figure) for your victory strip) isn't just more palatable for a kid, but more representative of real war.

If you can play M44 with your one-year-old, you have one hell of a kid.
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J. Emmett
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MacMog wrote:
Gravey wrote:
As you make me consider how I'll play M44 with my now-one-year-old, I think saying a defeated unit has surrendered and been captured (here're your prisoners (figure) for your victory strip) isn't just more palatable for a kid, but more representative of real war.

If you can play M44 with your one-year-old, you have one hell of a kid.

I told her, "You keep eating those pieces, and replacement expansions are coming out of your future allowance. Also, they count as medals for me. House rule. Stop crying."
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Jaime D.
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Hello,

not sure if others already suggested the following:

Jesse Rasmussen, an active contributor of Memoir'44 has been working with kids (I think he is a school teacher) and he has created a guide to help parents teaching Memoir'44 to kids. You may find more info here: http://www.daysofwonder.com/en/mypage/362174/m44/story#_inde...

It's called "Teaching Memoir'44 to young players" so I think that may fit you. Along with this mini-guide, he has created three scenarios in order to introduce some abstract rules in a easy to grasp way:

Scenario Young Generals, designed to introduce the "Take Ground" concept http://www.daysofwonder.com/memoir44/en/editor/view/?id=4873 and only with Infantry units.

Scenario Young Generals II, designed to introduce the "Armor Overrun" concept http://www.daysofwonder.com/memoir44/en/editor/view/?id=4882 adding Armor units

Scenario Young Generals III, designed to introduce all the units and some fixed obstacles along with almost all the terrain types you may find in the basic game, http://www.daysofwonder.com/memoir44/en/editor/view/?id=5085

Hope this helps.
Regards,
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George Husted
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I almost always speak in terms of "units" (as in, military units) which are an abstraction that represents the men and equipment. So, when I play with my kids, we generally use terms like "eliminated", "knocked out", "got 'em", "wiped out", "destroyed", and the occasional "killed". I have discussed what it means for a "unit" to be eliminated in terms of moral and combat effectiveness. As stated above, it does not at all mean that everyone was "killed" when a unit is "killed".

We started playing at about age 7 and my daughter is a young teen now with no apparent ill effects and my oldest son is 10...and again, no ill effects.

That being said, when I was a kid that age, we used to set up our plastic soldier armies and A) throw dirt bombs at them B) throw rocks and sticks at them C) shoot them with slingshots and wrist rockets D)shoot them with BB guns and pellet guns.

There was no doubt that we "killed" them...only for them to be set up again and played with many times over.

It was play and the language of play. Being "killed" didn't mean real death. It wasn't until much later that "killed" transformed from youthful hyperbole to grim and permanent reality. The use of the term in play was not harmful to me and my playmates. Boys (and that better "more intelligent sort of girl who likes boys' games and books" (H.G. Wells)) have "killed" imaginary enemies and game animals from time immemorial. It is part of humanity and I don't think it is anything we need to be worried about. It is understood on a primary level that this is play and pretend.
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Dutch Jones
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So i played her at sword beach tonight. I opted for using the terms out and run off.
After beating her 5-0 she got upset that she didnt get to use her air power card so i let her have one last go.
She rolled a hit against one of my infantry unitS with just the one unit left.
Her response: "yay, i killed him"!
Typical!
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Derrek McNab
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The PC version of Memoir calls it a "hit".

At the end of the match, it gives you the numbers of "figures won".
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Peter Thur
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Hmmm, quite a tricky question you brought up here.

I'd be forthright and call it 'killed'. Explain to her that it's a game about war and people die in wars. Of course that's difficult to explain to young children. And it get's even worse explaining why such a game is considered to be "fun" when the real life equvalent is one of the most horrible inventions mankind ever made.

But kids appreciate honesty. No need to hide the truth behind euphemisms. (They should also be aware to the fact that a cow has to die for every steak). You might argue that children haven't that kind of ethical comprehension like adults have, and therefore aren't fully able to understand what killing means.
That is correct, but they also are less inclined to scrutinize facts their parents tell them. The little plastic soldiers are dead - ok, it's still fun playing games with daddy.

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Steve Fischer
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If you want language to fit the PC culture, tell her that those units are now on Time-Out but they should be able to play the next game if their behavior improves...
 
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I have always used the terms "eliminated" or, occasionally, "destroyed" with players of all ages and both sexes. It has absolutely nothing to do with being PC, and everything to do with being accurate to what the game is actually representing. While casualties can usually be inferred from unit elimination, a unit removed from the board has ceased to be combat effective, not necessarily ceased to exist physically.
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Richard Woelkers
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Tanks can run out of fuel or ammo and therefore be removed from the game. As for Inf. some of the figures can be wounded and be removed. That way we have the Medics and Mechanics card for units that have loses. Hope this helps.
 
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