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Subject: Surrendering the Field & Victory Points rss

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John Carnahan
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Hi --

Thanks for making a game on this subject. I'm learning a lot from it.

This may have been asked elsewhere, but I have been looking at a scenario (Halmstad) with a VP schedule based on enemy casualties, and wondering if there isn't an incentive for the weaker side (the Danes, in this case) to create a draw by putting all their wings on Rally.

In Halmsted scenario 1, the Swedes have a high VP threshold, because they start with a big advantage over the Danes. But if the Danes quit early, I'm worried the Swedes can't make up those points.

In this scenario in particular, a "surrendering" Danish player can still win, if they moved any pieces off the board edge. Do cavalry that charged off also enable the "surrender win," in addition to counting for Danish VP? Is this meant to allow the Danes to quit early, or should they have to play all six turns?

I haven't played it with an opponent yet, so maybe my concerns are unfounded. It's more that I'm anticipating a potential argument about the surrender the field rule, based on the set-up.


thanks,
John

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Chris Montgomery
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John Carnahan wrote:
In Halmsted scenario 1, the Swedes have a high VP threshold, because they start with a big advantage over the Danes. But if the Danes quit early, I'm worried the Swedes can't make up those points.

In this scenario in particular, a "surrendering" Danish player can still win, if they moved any pieces off the board edge.


Correct. In this Battle, the Danes player may ignore the mandatory Draw Result for Surrendering the Field *if* he has "Breakout VPs" as described in the scenario rules. He only wins if the VP totals are low enough, though. I think the scenario rules are very clear about this.

Quote:
Do cavalry that charged off also enable the "surrender win," in addition to counting for Danish VP?


The scenario rules appear to be very clear:

"If the Danish Player has moved units off map and earned breakout VPs during the game he is not prevented from winning by MPBS Rule 4.6 . . . and can win the scenario even though all his wings are under Rally Orders . . ."

Note that cavalry that simply charge off the map do not create VPs, they must have a "Pursue Off Map and Eliminate" result on the Cavalry Pursuit Table.

Note that this means the LI create no VPs for exiting. Cavalry create no VPs for exiting unless they "Pursue Off Map and Eliminate". The only other way to score Breakout VPs is by exiting infantry off the map. That's no small feat in this scenario since Danish Breakout VPs are only earned by crossing off the opposite map edge, which means passing around or through the Swedish Army, as well as some pretty nasty terrain.

I'd play it the way the scenario is written, which seems to conform with how you have described it, I just don't think the Breakout VPs are going to be that easily obtained. The Swedes have *LOTS* more cavalry than the Danes.

Quote:
Is this meant to allow the Danes to quit early, or should they have to play all six turns?


The game does not need to go the six turns. As soon as the Danes have exited a unit off the map to get VPs and they are winning (not a very likely result in the first couple of turns, anyway), they should probably go into Rally with all wings as quickly as possible in order to try and win the scenario - this can backfire, though - especially if the Danish leaders are weak on rolls. The Swedes may have enough time to wreck havoc and bring the VPs up to par with a Swedish victory.

Quote:
I haven't played it with an opponent yet, so maybe my concerns are unfounded. It's more that I'm anticipating a potential argument about the surrender the field rule, based on the set-up.


If it's a concern, discuss how to handle it with your opponent first, and use this thread as support for how you understand the rules.

Also be aware that the designer might swing by and completely disagree with everything I've said. Give it a day or two and see if anyone else wants to post. I'm not really an authority on the matter.

Cheers!
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Brian Berg Asklev Hansen
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THe designer agrees with everything Chris just wrote with the slight exception that you can actually move cavalry off the map and earn exit VPs for them just like infantry (in addition to getting pursue and eliminate results with them).

I think you will see that your concerns are not an issue in actual play as it is very hard to pull off a stunt where the Danes exit a lot of units, and then swithch to rally orders before the Swedes inflict lots of casualties on the Danes.

The breakout rule is in reality not used in the historical scenario except for Danish cavalry that roll well on the cavalry pursuit table, but can play a big role in the much longer early start scenario if the Danes decide on a "breakout to safety" plan instead of a "pull back behind the river" plan.
 
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Brian Berg Asklev Hansen
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Quote:

Thanks for making a game on this subject. I'm learning a lot from it.


Thanks for buying and playing it!
I am humbled by the interest so many people outside Germany and Scandinavia have shown in such an obscure regional conflict.

Brian
 
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