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Subject: What to do when you know you lost? rss

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Danny Wu
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Funny story, I played a four player game of TM this past weekend. On the very first round, due to poor faction selection and a bad move in the first round, I knew I lost the game. My fiance, similar to me also made a few bad moves and will also result to a lost.
What do you guys do in this situation? Will you resign, ask to start another game, or played it out for the remaining 3 hours?

In our case, I announced that we will lose due to poor play but played it out and as predicted, lost.

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Neil Christiansen
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This is PRECISELY the problem when so much of the game is decided on set-up and initial actions. It is about my only gripe about the game and why I almost prefer to play asynchronously online.

Not only is it often easy to tell who will lose, I can often now tell who will win at the end of turn 1.

It is the downfall of lack of ranomness during the game and no catch-up mechanisms. Some people will be okay with it and some will not.

In answer to the question, I just try to maximize my points and foil the leader when I can. I am gaining a heuristic as to what good (but not great) scores are and want to be sure to have one.
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Mr. Blue
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chris1nd wrote:
I just try to maximize my points and foil the leader when I can.


This. Although I like to win, I like to have a satisfying gaming experience more, and winning is just one component of that. Some of the best times I've had with games have been hard-fought losses. So, I guess it's all a matter of perspective.
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Danny Wu
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chris1nd wrote:
This is PRECISELY the problem when so much of the game is decided on set-up and initial actions. It is about my only gripe about the game and why I almost prefer to play asynchronously online.

Not only is it often easy to tell who will lose, I can often now tell who will win at the end of turn 1.

It is the downfall of lack of ranomness during the game and no catch-up mechanisms. Some people will be okay with it and some will not.

In answer to the question, I just try to maximize my points and foil the leader when I can. I am gaining a heuristic as to what good (but not great) scores are and want to be sure to have one.


I'm not sure about foiling the leader if I can't take the lead. I would just be playing king maker if I attempt to foil the current leader, then if a new leader comes up, do the same to him.
The winner of the game was also on a different island as I, where I would have little influence on his expansion.

I definitely need a start over button in that game. Ended with 120-130ish points which I didn't even think I was going to break 100 with my start.
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Michel Lapointe
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A bad move is not a guaranteed lost. Everything is question of timing, don't mean that the other will optimize everything.

So in that case I would play to make as much point as possible even if I have no chance to victory, not playing king maker, but always the move the improve my score the best whatever is the impact on the other.

And of course... have fun... that what's important you never know what will happen. I've lost game when scoring over 150 and being sure I was winning easily, and I've won game with a low hundred even if I was sure that I was going to loose just because I got a good timing at the end.

You never know what will happen...
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Sky Zero
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iamdannywu wrote:
Funny story, I played a four player game of TM this past weekend. On the very first round, due to poor faction selection and a bad move in the first round, I knew I lost the game. My fiance, similar to me also made a few bad moves and will also result to a lost.
What do you guys do in this situation? Will you resign, ask to start another game, or played it out for the remaining 3 hours?

In our case, I announced that we will lose due to poor play but played it out and as predicted, lost.



Nothing is pre-determined and pity parties at the gaming table are just a sign of a poor sport. There are no bad factions, just bad players.
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birchbeer
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skyzero wrote:
iamdannywu wrote:
Funny story, I played a four player game of TM this past weekend. On the very first round, due to poor faction selection and a bad move in the first round, I knew I lost the game. My fiance, similar to me also made a few bad moves and will also result to a lost.
What do you guys do in this situation? Will you resign, ask to start another game, or played it out for the remaining 3 hours?

In our case, I announced that we will lose due to poor play but played it out and as predicted, lost.



Nothing is pre-determined and pity parties at the gaming table are just a sign of a poor sport. There are no bad factions, just bad players.


No 'bad' factions, perhaps, but certainly some are MORE equal than others...
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Danny Wu
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skyzero wrote:
iamdannywu wrote:
Funny story, I played a four player game of TM this past weekend. On the very first round, due to poor faction selection and a bad move in the first round, I knew I lost the game. My fiance, similar to me also made a few bad moves and will also result to a lost.
What do you guys do in this situation? Will you resign, ask to start another game, or played it out for the remaining 3 hours?

In our case, I announced that we will lose due to poor play but played it out and as predicted, lost.



Nothing is pre-determined and pity parties at the gaming table are just a sign of a poor sport. There are no bad factions, just bad players.


I'm not sure what your definition of bad is, but there are weaker factions such as giants, and I consider them bad because their chance of winning is slim.

Nothing is pre-determined but sometimes, you pretty much know you're going to lose under the circumstances. I'm not counting on the slim chance, good players to make multiple mistakes so I have a chance to win.

I don't mind the no catch up mechanic. If I made a mistake or a poor move, then I deserve to lose by someone who plays better.

Back to my initial question. Which do you choose? I'm assuming some of you who replied will play it through to completion?
Also, this is round one of a six round game. 15-20 mins into play.

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Sky Zero
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Best advice I ever got..."finish what you start".
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Riku Riekkinen
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Yeah, just maximize score. Choosing a weak faction is kind of strange thing in this game, since its kind of against the spirit of the game (the faction selection is a part of the game). However I do it also. Its kind of trying to see, if I can pull a miraculous win with a weaker faction (and forgetting intetionally that the faction selection is part of the game).
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I don't think you can already say you've lost from the first round, even if you have the worst possible initial conditions (well, ok, if all your dwellings are completely surrounded by other players, you would indeed have lost). Only in the 4th or 5th it becomes clear for sure.
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Michel Lapointe
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Yep continue to play... first round is not a whole game... there is less equal faction, that need special setup to shine, but you can win with them all.

Also knowing that your going no where is a wonderful occasion to try new thing... instead of doing the same thing over and over, try a new strategy, you may be surprise of the result, and do everything that is possible to maximise YOUR score, don't look who is the leader, just maximise your score.

You may be surprised of the result even when you're in the worst situation...

At worst you will just loose, and will have enjoy the game anyway
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Sebastian
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David H
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iamdannywu wrote:
or played it out for the remaining 3 hours?


Three hours?

Holy analysis paralysis, that is at least twice as long as it should take.


Quote:
In our case, I announced that we will lose due to poor play but played it out and as predicted, lost.


What purpose was served by announcing that you were going to lose? All it does is detracts from the experience of the other players. If you do end up losing, then the winning player loses some of the flush of victory, because it was all decided in the first round. If you end up winning, then the other players feel that they could have won, but played so badly that the person who was guaranteed to lose actually won.

That is assuming they believe you. Maybe you whine like this all the time and they are used to ignoring your prophecies of doom.
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Kristopher Snyder
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OP this theory of yours is a bit flawed. I refuse to accept that you can lose a six round game in which you're allowed to do multiple moves (if possible), by simply making one poor move. I agree with other poster that, yes, a faction might not be equal to others, but in the right hands ... there's still a possibility.

I played last night for a second time against a dude who has played the game a half dozen times or more. I beat him. He had the engineers which seemed to me to have some good advantages in my opinion. My faction was the nomads. I didn't use my special ability until the last round. in fact, I didn't place the castle or shrine until just before the final round when doing so would generate 5 points each. I also had the scroll that gave me 4 points for each castle and shrine in play. This strategy netted me 18 points, enough to pull me out of last place and into second. Then with a favor and the last round bonus I received 4 points for each dwelling played. I placed several.

I think it's always possible to win games. you just need to understand it. You need to see what's on the board and then play to take advantage of what's available. And most importantly-you can't give up.
 
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Neil Christiansen
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I honestly believe that 60% to 70% of this game is determined by the end of set-up. Sure, I have lost due to in-game play some, but much is based on faction selection, initial placement of dwellings, and bonus tile selection since they will guide your long-term strategy.

I have seen some mean-spirited placements of initial dwellings seriously hose someone before the game started. You just look and say: "that dwelling will never expand and they functionally now have lost" and "the other one is off in the middle of nowhere". I have yet to see one of the truly unfortunate initial placements turn the game around and win.

Then add in the first turn. The first time I played, the Giant player increased digging the first turn twice. First turn account for another 10% to 20% of the outcome. Should I grab shipping bonus, burn power for priest, increase shipping and spread out? Should I rush stronghold because that power helps me expand? Get a temple out to compete for cult tracks?
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birchbeer
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TermiGator wrote:


This is along the lines of the adage that it is the journey that counts, not the end.
 
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Robert Stewart
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If you've played the game enough times to reliably know you have no chance of winning (and not just be suffering from a self-fulfilling prophecy or a blind spot) then:

A) Maybe you should play something else for a while

B) Play to do well anyway - first place may be out of reach, but what about third? or setting a new highest losing score? Or play to allow the likely winner to make those mistakes you need him to.

There's a tricky question about whether the player in third place should attack the player in second or the player in first - if you always attack the player in first place, then you might have a chance of winning, but you'll often come third instead; if you always attack the player in second, you'll often come second, but pretty much never win... Outside of a tournament structure (where the relative values of winning, second place and third place are laid down for you) there is no clear, universal right answer because there's no set value for coming second...
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James Deignan
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When faced with the prospect of kingmaking, I always do the following:

Play to maximize MY score. If this results in me "kingmaking" one player or another, the answer is:

What I did was best for ME. If I neglected to take the action that was best for my score or position, then I've violated the gaming contract as stated by the illustrious Mr. Herm Edwards. "You play to win the game." Maximizing your scoring is playing to win...even if you know you can't win.
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iamdannywu wrote:
Funny story, I played a four player game of TM this past weekend. On the very first round, due to poor faction selection and a bad move in the first round, I knew I lost the game. My fiance, similar to me also made a few bad moves and will also result to a lost.
What do you guys do in this situation? Will you resign, ask to start another game, or played it out for the remaining 3 hours?

In our case, I announced that we will lose due to poor play but played it out and as predicted, lost.



I thought I had just this due to some people placing so close to me when I played as uhhhhhhhhhh the black color where you use priests for shovels... Anyways, I ended up doing a serious turn around in turn 4 and my turn 5 worked to setup what I figured but wasn't positive due to screwing up a chance at 2 towns but still thought I was going to win.

If I do know I'm going to lose, I do everything in my power to go directly for the one in the lead in any way shape and form. A guy in my group has taken this strategy in the past and it has lead to some amazing finishes in more than one occasion and can really put someone in their place if they get cocky on what they think is an auto-win.
 
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iamdannywu wrote:
Funny story, I played a four player game of TM this past weekend. On the very first round, due to poor faction selection and a bad move in the first round, I knew I lost the game. My fiance, similar to me also made a few bad moves and will also result to a lost.
What do you guys do in this situation? Will you resign, ask to start another game, or played it out for the remaining 3 hours?

In our case, I announced that we will lose due to poor play but played it out and as predicted, lost.



I have a player in my regular group who does this for most every damn game we play. It is no ending of irritating and I simply don't play some games with him as he will immediately default into his 'sulky loser' stance as he has lost those games before so how could he *ever* win them now? :shake:

Rule 1 - don't be a sore loser - and that includes announcing to the table that you will lose. This is the most transparent pity plea in board gaming.
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Sebastian
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rmsgrey wrote:
If you've played the game enough times to reliably know you have no chance of winning (and not just be suffering from a self-fulfilling prophecy or a blind spot) then:

A) Maybe you should play something else for a while

B) Play to do well anyway - first place may be out of reach, but what about third? or setting a new highest losing score? Or play to allow the likely winner to make those mistakes you need him to.

or
C) Try some crazy one-sided strategy - just to see it's effect in game.
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jon dee
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I like the spirit that you should not think you have lost after the initial setup. Unfortunately I find it naive to insist on in the case of Terra Mystica. And IMHO the advice given here to continue because you never know... just shows a basic lack of understanding the impact the start have on the game.

As soon as your opponents are experienced TM players, the setup in TM can lead to predictions just as sure as in chess. Even though the blunders needed to catch up in TM both have to be bigger and made by more players than in chess.

What to do in situations like this is totally up what is established as ok to do in your play group.
Fortunately TM is a game that can play rather fast with some experience and as such these situations can be bearable, when the gaming time goes down. So in the case of TM i would play it out, as you did, maybe even announcing a VP goal.



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Robert Stewart
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Zestrenocya wrote:
What I did was best for ME. If I neglected to take the action that was best for my score or position, then I've violated the gaming contract as stated by the illustrious Mr. Herm Edwards. "You play to win the game." Maximizing your scoring is playing to win...even if you know you can't win.


The trouble is, that isn't always true - if you have a choice between scoring 8 points and letting the leader score 10, or scoring 5 points and letting the leader score 5, then the latter improves your position more.
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Pete Goch
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Even with a game like Terra Mystica you can't "know" that you've lost even if the setup is working against you and you've made a bad move or two at the start. There's nothing preventing the other players from also making misplays or interfering with other players in such a way that makes your position more viable.
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