Peter Vrabel
United Kingdom
Cambridge
UK
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmb
Okay, I'm starting S13, the allies have three AA guns, and and 4 squads and 5 HS, the Germans have, like, y'know, lots an' lots of troops.

So I need to make the best use of the AA guns as I can, but the problem is that there's simply no good spots to put them, the Germans can enter on any turn and on any edge, so I need to put them in the middle, or they'll be overrun in about 2 turns.

Ideally I'd put the infantry in some of the buildings for defence, but the Guns have to be set away from the buildings, and I don't want to spread my forces out too much (Or the Germans will simply concentrate thier forces at one point, and most of the defenders won't be able to do anything.)

Even worse, since Grain is in season, most long range attacks by the guns will have large hindrance DRMs.

Anyway, I've decided on this:

The forces are very concentrated, which is good for defence (Everybody will be able to fire, normally) but they don't really have anywheer to rout safely to. I'm also worried about being attacked from the woods around U3.

Come to think of it, would it be better to divide my squads between the buildings in O8 and the woods in V4 and then put the guns between them?

Is it just me, or it better to use the AA guns for thier intrinsic fire? They FP goes from 4 (Due to the 40mm calibre) to 8 on the IFT, and they no longer need to TH DR. All for a measly loss of 1 ROF!

And they have a normal range of 16 hexes!

EDIT: Oh yeah, the whole point of this is to ask: "What would you do? Is my reasoning sound?

This is what I love about ASL, there's so much to think about, so many options, and so much to do...

EDIT2: When Guns use IFE, can they only fire at targets in thier CA? The rules seem to indicate no, but that seems rather odd. And it's yet another reason to use IFE on whimpy guns.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Jay Richardson
United States
Lindsborg
Kansas
flag msg tools
mb
To me, your defense seems a little too concentrated. As the Germans, I would attack in mass from the southeast, using the treeline to shield my troops from your LMGs and the two AA Guns in the west while I take out the AA Gun in Z6 and the Greek infantry. Then I would engage and defeat the Australian infantry (with the treeline again shielding me from the other AA Guns. Then I would enter the treeline and engage the Gun in V6, with the grain limiting the effectiveness of the Gun in T5. And then finally engage the Gun in T5 to win.

I could use maximum force against each element of the defenders in turn, and I wouldn't have to move very far from start to finish (very important with only six turns to play).

As the defender, my first thought would be to spread out the Guns as widely as possible... maybe something like E5, H6, M7. Then I might try putting the HS in buildings B4, C7, I2, and O8 to deny the Germans easy access to good defensive terrain, and possibly slow them down a bit. The full squads I'd put in places like E6, F4, I5, and L7, with the idea of running them toward whichever Gun seems LEAST threatened.

To win, I only need to preserve one of the three Guns, so the idea behind this defense is: (A) if the Germans keep their forces together, six turns may not give him enough time to capture all three because they are so widely spaced, and (B) if the Germans split their forces to attack all three at once, I will try to use my squads to gain local superiority (4 squads & Gun vs 3 squads & 1 HS) to defeat one of their attacks, which again may not leave them enough time to bring up their other forces and win.

Whether this would actually work or not, I don't know, as I have never played this scenario.

Quote:
Is it just me, or it better to use the AA guns for thier intrinsic fire?

In very general terms, IFE is usually better if the target is moving in the open or has a low TEM. If the target has a high TEM, firing as ordnance might be better. It is often difficult to choose between the two, but the more you play the more you'll get a feel for what you think is best.

Quote:
When Guns use IFE, can they only fire at targets in thier CA? The rules seem to indicate no, but that seems rather odd. And it's yet another reason to use IFE on whimpy guns.

The ASLSK #2 rules aren't clear about this. Under the full ASL rules, they can fire at units outside of their current CA when using IFE, but they must add the penalty for changing CA to the IFT DR (#8 on the "To Hit Dice Roll Modifiers").

The ASLSK IFE rule (rule 6.8) does not mention this at all, but the rule that describes changing CA (rule 3.2.4) does not specifically prohibit changing CA when using IFE, so I would think that it works the same as in ASL itself (change CA as necessary and apply the CA change DRM to the IFT DR).
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Jay Richardson
United States
Lindsborg
Kansas
flag msg tools
mb
A follow-up: we decided to try out my defense idea by actually playing the scenario. I took the Allies and Mark Goss directed the Germans.

After we finished playing, we noticed that one element of my defense is illegal: the Gun in M7 is too close to a building... not that it ended up helping me any.

I won the first game handily. The German attack was spread out too much, and a number of his broken units ended up stuck in woods hexes on the edge of the board, unable to rout out of my LOS, which meant I could keep them under DM almost forever just by firing at them each turn.

We reset the game and tried again. This time Mark concentrated his forces and got them on the map faster. The main German force entered through G1, H0, and I1, while a smaller force entered through A4-A7. A few HS entered at T10, but the two Greek HS in O8 & P7 held them at bay for almost four turns.

The key was the killer stack of 3 5-4-8s, 3 LMGs, and 9-1 leader that entered from the north. I broke up the stack - and wounded the 9-1 - early on, but they eventually recovered and from then on their 24 FP attacks were just devastating. I conceded at the end of turn five, with eight or so German units closing in on the last unmanned AA Gun, and only a single Australian squad & LMG to oppose them.

In analyzing the defense, I think that my idea of placing the Guns far apart to put the Germans until time pressure won't work... the Germans were able to attack very methodically without running short of time. And this defense has the same weakness that I criticized in Peter's setup: the Germans were able to use the tree lines to shield their troops from the fire of the AA Guns. The HS that I placed out in the buildings did sucessfully slow up the Germans and cause them problems, but I'm not convinced that this was really the best way to use them.

I think the Guns probably need to be placed so that they can support one another... so that the Germans cannot attack a Gun without coming under fire from the other two. But there is no doubt that this scenario poses quite a problem for the defender.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Peter Vrabel
United Kingdom
Cambridge
UK
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmb
An in conclusion...my statergy worked...but it probably shouldn't have. Pretty much every german squad attacked in the first turn half of them just west of X10 and the forest line there, and half of them east of X10. It didn't go to well, I almost ran out of DM counters. The problem was that all the guns had someone to fire at, while if they'd all attacked from teh SE I could've overwhelmed the easterly Gun, while the other two were just sitting there. The Germans managed to pretty much wipe out the allied defence, but too late, and they were left with two squads to take the remaining two Guns. Even worse, the DC weren't used very well, the squads carrying them tened to get shot to pieces before they'd even gotten near the Guns, though they did manage to take out one crew with them.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Mike Barton
United States
Spring Valley
California
flag msg tools
mbmbmb
I don't know if anyone is still interested in this, rather than give an actual setup, I just have some thoughts:

Aside from the German LMG's, the Germans are limited to a range of 4.
If the Germans get close enough to use the DC's, I wouldn't worry about too much else.
The Germans have sufficient force to attack each gun separately - and should - if the guns are spread out to the extent that they cannot cover each other.

If the guns are placed as far as possible from cover terrain (buildings and woods) then the Germans are compelled to either stack in covered terrain or move into open/hinderance ground. Either way it's good for the defenders.

Therefore:
The guns should be placed centrally and concentrated as far from cover terrain as possible. The Infantry groups should be split into platoons with the leaders, yielding three groups. The MG's should be put in the buildings to cover the open ground and to give the defending infantry the greatest amount of survival time. Delaying the German approach to the guns is critical. The more turns the guns can fire the less likely the Germans are to win.

The guns' fire should be concentrated on any enemy units within that enemy unit's normal range (squad IFP or the MG's) to try as hard as possible to prevent a lucky break on the guns' crews.

Looks like making the Germans swallow the whole pill at once is the best strategy.

The defending infantry maybe should set up in a position so that they are not wiped out the first few turns, maybe even have one of the three groups set up away from the guns as a relief/reinforcement group until the direction of the German attack is set. Even if the Germans slough off a platoon to deal with the relieving force it's one less platoon facing the concentrated guns.

Looks like a well-balanced scenario.

I would want to play the Germans. I think if the Germans can resist the urge to stack and keep rallying the broken units eventually they will win by normal attrition. The Germans kindof inherit the mobility advantage and in any case it looks like they can easily surround the guns' positions either scattered or concentrated.

With the Germans' assault fire and morale advantages they can be somewhat bold in their approach. If they have enough numerical superiority they can try a good assault line through the grain. They'll take some breaks initially but with the grain cover the survivors should have a fierce retort.

The Germans are generally going to want to make it a close-up fight at minimum ranges while the Guns and ANZAC units will want to keep the ranges over 5. The Greeks can maybe be used to delay, but can't survive a sustained fight. It's better to keep them moving away under your control than letting them get routed. Use them to keep the Germans in the trees, then move away out of range and go into reserve, I don't know.

Key for the Germans - DON'T STACK and KEEP THE ALLIES as SCATTERED as possible. The Germans cannot afford to lose an entire stack at once.

I think that if the Germans don't stack and keep pressing home the attack they will come out ahead.

If the Austrailian Infantry isn't wiped out in the first two turns, then the tide will shift to the allies. The Greeks would be doing great to break a German squad or two before running away - but I wouldn't count on it.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
John Richert
United States
Springboro
Ohio
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Revisiting an old thread...

I played this for the first time today and from the Allied point of view, it is pretty hopeless. The problem is that the Germans have an overwhelming force superiority.

The placement of the guns should be mutually supporting. The Allies cannot really count on their infantry to stand up to a determined assault. If you spread your forces out, the Germans have enough time to concentrate against each gun in turn. Additionally, with the rules that each gun must be setup within 5 hexes or less from each other, it makes it difficult to really for the Germans to spread their forces.

The other problem that the Allied player has is that his forces are very fragile. If your forces break, a good German player is not going to give your forces time to rally. There if very little rally terrain on the board, and it is extremely open. So it is fairly easy to get shots on routed troops to keep them under DM. Then, the German can use his half-squads to rush the guns adn try to take them out in HtH combat.

I would much rather play the Germans. If you stay disciplined as the Germans, you should win this by turn 5. Now, if the game was one turn shorter, this suddenly becomes a much more balanced scenario.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Russ Williams
Poland
Wrocław
Dolny Śląsk
flag msg tools
designer
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
LordStrabo wrote:
Anyway, I've decided on this:

...This is why it's better to upload images to your local personal BGG gallery instead of linking to offsite images, which tend to go bad later... :/

Does OP or anyone else happen to still have the image? (archive.org does not archive BGG threads...)

Edited to add later: now the image is appearing again, weird.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Front Page | Welcome | Contact | Privacy Policy | Terms of Service | Advertise | Support BGG | Feeds RSS
Geekdo, BoardGameGeek, the Geekdo logo, and the BoardGameGeek logo are trademarks of BoardGameGeek, LLC.