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Subject: Some questions after initial game rss

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Mosse Stenström
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Just purchased Wizard Kings and after my first game I have some questions I'd like to get right before the next trial:

(1) Are "Hexside Limits" used only when entering a battle hex? Can you, for example move several units over a bridge (which according to the manual has a hexside limit of 1) when not moving into battle? I'd guess yes, but I honestly don't know...

(2) After a victorious battle you are allowed to regroup, which could mean "retreating". Can the victor in this case "retreat" forward? And as the rules states, hexside limits do not apply when regrouping - can units regroup over, say a mountain hexside (even when not being mountain folk?) I'd say yes and no, but I could be wrong...

(3) During battle, the manual states that "Each hit is applied to the strongest unit" - but do all hits from that action apply to the same unit or can they be divided? (For example: I have a 4-strenght Treek, attacking an opponent with a 2-strenght Orc and a 3-strenght Ogre - and throw 3 hits. Do all three hits apply to the Ogre, or could my opponent divide, so that the Ogre takes two hits and the Orc takes one?)

Thank you in advance for any help - and btw, great game - and I'm sorry your warnings about not playing the standard scenarios were not listened to by me. We still played the standard scenario - but will probably not do this again...
 
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George Van Voorn
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Quote:
(3) During battle, the manual states that "Each hit is applied to the strongest unit" - but do all hits from that action apply to the same unit or can they be divided? (For example: I have a 4-strenght Treek, attacking an opponent with a 2-strenght Orc and a 3-strenght Ogre - and throw 3 hits. Do all three hits apply to the Ogre, or could my opponent divide, so that the Ogre takes two hits and the Orc takes one?)


You MUST divide the damage yourself, and you apply every single hit to the strongest unit. So, say your opponent rolls three hits, you apply one hit to your 3 ogre (now 2), the second one to any of the now 2 ogres, and the last one to the other 2 ogre, leaving you two 1 ogres.

Regarding the other the questions: I don't know what exactly changed in the v1.6 rules (I bought the game with the old v1.4 rules). However, I suspect your guesses are all correct. I don't recall really how the regrouping rules were in the old rules, but in Hammer of the Scots you can regroup forward indeed. Since they changed the battle rules in a more HotS-like fashion, I suspect this alteration to be true as well. Non-mountain units can never cross mountain hexsides, that will not have changed. Question (1) I honestly don't know either, but no doubt someone else will respond...

Oetan
 
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Nick Lunt
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Hi Mosse,

Im no expert but here's how we play it.

1. Hexside Limits only apply when entering a battle hex.
2. Regroup units thru any hexside in any direction, but a forest unit cannot regroup thru a mountain hexside (or any other impassable terrain).

During regrouping the hex is no longer a battle hex, so answer number 1 above applies, and you can move units out of the hex or move other units into the hex.

By the way, the first time we played we had 3 maps and it was the first to 21GP to win, we enjoyed the game but now were playing Wizard Run available from columbia games and it's a wicked scenario

Hope that helps,
Nick .
 
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John Richert
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Mosse wrote:
Thank you in advance for any help - and btw, great game - and I'm sorry your warnings about not playing the standard scenarios were not listened to by me. We still played the standard scenario - but will probably not do this again...


I would also suggest trying the v1.5 rules that are here on BGG, I feel they are much better than v1.6 rules.
 
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Gary Pressler
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The others are answers are fully correct, but some agreement might balance their expressed self-doubts.

#1 Yes, Hexside Limits only ever apply when entering into a battle hex. To expand your example, if you have 5 units trying to attack an enemy two hexes away and the most direct route crosses two bridge hexsides, all five may cross the first bridge, but only one may cross the second bridge into battle. The others will have to go around and enter via other hexsides, or else use them to block off retreats.

#2 I'll also highly suggest sticking with the 1.5 rules. (There's some changes I like in 1.6, and several I don't, but it's all too experimental. 1.5 is the cleanest version of the 1.x series.) In the version 1.6, rules were added that Retreats could only be made across the hexsides that were used to enter battle. However, there is no indication whether this "hexside control" exists when Regrouping. Regrouping still describes itself as a "normal" Retreat without Hexside Limits, but whether "normal" in 1.6 means maintaining hexside control, I cannot say. Certainly, forward Regrouping was allowed in the earlier rulesets.

#3 The best way to think of this is that each hit is applied individually. Thus, if your opponent rolls three hits, for each one, determine which of your units has the highest Strength. If there is a tie, you choose which takes the hit. (You will almost always choose your C1 units first.) Then repeat for the second and third hits.
 
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Eliot Hemingway
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Warhammer wrote:
Mosse wrote:
Thank you in advance for any help - and btw, great game - and I'm sorry your warnings about not playing the standard scenarios were not listened to by me. We still played the standard scenario - but will probably not do this again...


I would also suggest trying the v1.5 rules that are here on BGG, I feel they are much better than v1.6 rules.


This is not the only opinion on the matter of the rules, by any means. I suggest that you try them both, and use the elements from each that you find most enjoyable.

Personally, I use 1.6 while ditching the 3-round combat limit.
 
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Ted Kostek
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Looks like you've gotten answers to your main questions. I thought I'd throw in a little context.

The "retreat forward" thing is one of the fierce debates about the game. Hex-side ownership is fiddly in an otherwise simple game, but it feels wrong to allow retreat/regroup forward. I think the most important thing is to make a decision and stick to it. Either way is OK and leads to interesting tactical decisions, but switching back and forth is not the way to go.

Another controversial point is the 4 vs 6 stacking limits. Again, I'm a bit confused on this point, but I tend to favor the 6 stacking limit. One side says it's sometimes hard to get 6 blocks into a hex for the attack. The other side says w/ 4 limit you can achieve max defense in more locations.

One point where there's nearly universal agreement is that the 3 rnd limit doesn't work in this game. I think most people have abandonded that rule.

Finally, I think the maps have too much water. Except for the barbarians, most armies don't have many aquatic units, and sea move doesn't allow for invasions. The water restricts a lot of hexes, and the maps weren't that big to begin with.
 
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Mosse Stenström
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Wow. Thank you very much for your help.

As a general rule - I try to avoid houserules unless they are clearly broken (and in that case, I'd rather just not play the game...) - but I guess playing a mixture of the 1.5 and the 1.6 ruleset wouldn't be concidered a houserule...

The hexside limits make sense - and this is the part where we played the game wrong. Skipping the hexside limits for normal movement would speed up transport of troops, which would be good for the game.

I guess I should have a read through the 1.5 rules to see how they differ. The 3 round maximum of the battles seemed to be a good idea, but I feel it favored the defender too much, as it made it close to impossible to beat an army of four units (unless they were all 1-strenghts). I would understand it better if it was implemented, that after the third round, the weaker party had to retreat. The defender has enough in his favor anyway - since the attacker has more difficulties in surrounding the enemy before the kill in order to get more units involved in the battle. I will, however, probably suggest skipping it for our next endeavor (the 3 round-limit that is...)

As to stacking limits - I think 4 (+ 1 wizard) is quite enough. The hexes might get too crowded otherwise. And about the maps - I agree there is too much water. As I don't (yet) have more than the basic set, there are very few aquatics available, and the sea move I find to be not that valuable (I might be wrong on this - but this is how it feels for the moment) I am thinking about making some maps of my own at some point. Playing with the idea of having the orchs and elves battle it out on a map of my local village.

About the sea transport, by the way. Please clear up one thing for me; When is a city a port? Does the circle symbolising the city have to cross the shoreline in order to be a port, or is it enough that the city is in a coastal hex? There was some discussion about this during the setup of our game.

Again, thank you for your time and expertise.
 
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George Van Voorn
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Quote:
About the sea transport, by the way. Please clear up one thing for me; When is a city a port? Does the circle symbolising the city have to cross the shoreline in order to be a port, or is it enough that the city is in a coastal hex? There was some discussion about this during the setup of our game.


I got confused over that as well when I had bought the game. Say, a city has to actually touch the sea to be a port. You'll then see that most maps will not allow for sea transport. Most maps even become unplayable for that matter! You would then only be able to move flyers to the other side, which is crap, of course. So I play with the assumption that every city in a coastal hex is a port.

Oetan
 
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Marion Jensen
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Rather than start another thread, since I have a question after my initial game, I thought I'd post it here.

By the way, I was pleasantly surprised by this game. Definitely a keeper.

So my quetsion: the rules state that whatever the center of the hex is, is what the hex itself is. But, for example, on map 1 you have a section that has two hexes that are 'clear' in the middle, with a finger of trees that divide them. Elsewhere in the rules it says you can travel between clear hexes with no movement or combat effects (3.1). But it also says that if you enter into a forest hex, you have to stop (unless you are forest folk. So, my question, if I've moving from one clear hex, to a second clear hex, but there is a line of trees between them, do I have to stop? I may have missed it, but in going back, I couldn't see anything.

Thanks in advance.
 
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Ted Kostek
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Hex vs Hex-side

Be sure to make the distinction between a "hex" and a "hex-side". For example, there are few mountain hexes, but there are many mountain hex-sides. Your example about the forest most likely has two clear hexes separated by a forest hex-side. Thus, during a battle only 1 unit can cross that hex-side, but no one has to stop during non-battle movement.

3-rnd combat

You've hit the problem exactly: the defender already has lots of advantages. This rule works well in Hammer and other places, but most folks agree it doesn't work well here. It makes fortification almost impregnable.

Your idea about the weaker player retreating is very interesting, and I don't think I've see it before. Tricky bit is to decide what "weaker" means. Lowest gp? Lowest # of str pts? Could be very interesting.

I might try lowest total gp in the army. That would give the high-cost A units some extra advantage.
 
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John Richert
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Firemeboy wrote:
So my quetsion: the rules state that whatever the center of the hex is, is what the hex itself is. But, for example, on map 1 you have a section that has two hexes that are 'clear' in the middle, with a finger of trees that divide them. Elsewhere in the rules it says you can travel between clear hexes with no movement or combat effects (3.1). But it also says that if you enter into a forest hex, you have to stop (unless you are forest folk. So, my question, if I've moving from one clear hex, to a second clear hex, but there is a line of trees between them, do I have to stop? I may have missed it, but in going back, I couldn't see anything.


No, you do not have to stop in this case. However, that line of trees do affect hex side limits when entering a battle hex.

Also, addressing a previous post, it can be proved empirically that a stacking limit of 4 is greatly to the benefit of the defender. I've done it here and on the Columbia game site.

My main beef with the v1.6 rule set is that it was supposedly created to fix the game (stalemates and such). In my experience, the combination of the 3 round limit, pursuit, and stacking limit of 4 greatly enhanced defense. This leads to more stalemates, and eliminated scouting. Which results in the exact opposite of what the new rules were supposed to do.

In either case, play with the ruleset you prefer, but always START with v1.5, then try v1.6 and see which you prefer.
 
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Marion Jensen
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For what it's worth, based on what I've read here (thank you all), we played the 1.5 rules, and used the 'If an Orc Dies in the Forest...' scenario. It worked fine. In fact, the defender (elves) ended up just barely losing. Of course we were two novices, so maybe we didn't know enough to get into a stalemate, but we both enjoyed the game...
 
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Gary Pressler
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I just re-read the thread, and realized this was never strongly answered:

Quote:
About the sea transport, by the way. Please clear up one thing for me; When is a city a port? Does the circle symbolising the city have to cross the shoreline in order to be a port, or is it enough that the city is in a coastal hex? There was some discussion about this during the setup of our game.


A city is a port if its hex is coastal or contains a river. The city's symbol does not need to be touching the water. I was fairly certain this came up in the CG forums a long while back, but I can't find anything officially addressing this specific point. Were it not true, Sea Transport would be fairly useless on some maps. (And it's so rarely used as it is...)

EDIT: I still haven't found any official comment on this. However, the rules for Victory, upon which much of Wizard Kings is based, do specify that a Port is a City on a Coastal Hex. The location of the symbol is not a consideration. (Rivers don't count for Sea Transport in Victory, but the argument follows for Ports in River hexes for Wizard Kings.)
 
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Mosse Stenström
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GaryP wrote:
A city is a port if its hex is coastal or contains a river. The city's symbol does not need to be touching the water. I was fairly certain this came up in the CG forums a long while back, but I can't find anything officially addressing this specific point. Were it not true, Sea Transport would be fairly useless on some maps. (And it's so rarely used as it is...)


Thank you for your help!
This is the way we thought it should be - but could not get it confirmed from the rules. It is true that was this not the case sea transport would be pretty much useless - and some cities would be unreachable by any others than flyers.
 
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Alan Kaiser
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GaryP wrote:
I just re-read the thread, and realized this was never strongly answered:

Quote:
About the sea transport, by the way. Please clear up one thing for me; When is a city a port? Does the circle symbolising the city have to cross the shoreline in order to be a port, or is it enough that the city is in a coastal hex? There was some discussion about this during the setup of our game.


A city is a port if its hex is coastal or contains a river. The city's symbol does not need to be touching the water. I was fairly certain this came up in the CG forums a long while back, but I can't find anything officially addressing this specific point. Were it not true, Sea Transport would be fairly useless on some maps. (And it's so rarely used as it is...)

EDIT: I still haven't found any official comment on this. However, the rules for Victory, upon which much of Wizard Kings is based, do specify that a Port is a City on a Coastal Hex. The location of the symbol is not a consideration. (Rivers don't count for Sea Transport in Victory, but the argument follows for Ports in River hexes for Wizard Kings.)


I'm pretty sure I've seen this in the rules somewhere. Yes, a city is a port if it is in a hex that is coastal. And just to clarify, a port on a river is only applicable if it is downstream from a waterfall.
 
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