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Subject: Kevan's Card and Counterattacks rss

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Nathan Chaney
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One of Kevan's cards orders two units and makes them attack as blue rank units if they're different ranks. Does that mean that if a unit they attack counterattacks, they need blue die rolls to hit?
 
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Benjamin Symons
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No. The card states they attack as blue rank units. This doesn't imply they defend as blue ranks too.
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Nathan Chaney
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Is that an official ruling?

I ask because technically heavy armor units defend as a rank higher, but that also applies to counterattacks. Which isn't the same as just defending.

Also, Kevan's other card applies Toughness 1 during an attack, but that would be useless unless it also applies to the counterattack.
 
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Bartosz Popow
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Attacking as a blue rank unit doesn't have an effect on die symbols that you want to see (those are used for defense). For attackers the rank implies the number of dice you roll. And then against red units you want to roll red symbols, against blue ones blue symbols etc. Changed rank on attack may also have impact on withdrawal special rules.
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Nathan Chaney
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If you attack as a blue rank unit, though, you'd only ever get hit with blue (or sometimes valor) symbols.

Rank implies the dice you roll as well as which dice hit you.
 
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Aleksandar Vjestica
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what?
 
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Bartosz Popow
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Ok, now only I understood the main question. Let me rephrase it: if my unit is ordered to attack as a blue-ranked unit (roll all my necessary dice, deal damage etc.) and during the same battle get counterattacked by an opponent unit, do I defend as a blue-ranked unit (the attacker needs to roll blue symbols to damage my unit) or do I defend as the original color of the unit (most probably green)?
And I will step aside and let senior players answer this question ;].

Possibly SammySnijbonen got it right from the beginning.
 
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Nathan Chaney
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BartP wrote:
Ok, now only I understood the main question. Let me rephrase it: if my unit is ordered to attack as a blue-ranked unit (roll all my necessary dice, deal damage etc.) and during the same battle get counterattacked by an opponent unit, do I defend as a blue-ranked unit (the attacker needs to roll blue symbols to damage my unit) or do I defend as the original color of the unit (most probably green)?
And I will step aside and let senior players answer this question ;].

Possibly SammySnijbonen got it right from the beginning.


Yeah, that's my question. Sorry I wasn't clear earlier.

He may be right, but the reasoning can't be. Kevan has another similar card that adds Toughness 1, and that wouldn't have any effect at all if it only applied to the attack. So I'd assume it must also apply to counterattacks.
 
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Benjamin Symons
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Sure, but Toughness is an explicitly defensive capability, while the card that lets you attack as blue rank has nothing to do with defense and everything with offense.

The card that gives units toughness doesn't change anything about the number of attack dice they roll either.

It's a bit like comparing apples to pears, in my opinion.
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Christoph Breitkopf
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Ruanek wrote:
He may be right, but the reasoning can't be. Kevan has another similar card that adds Toughness 1, and that wouldn't have any effect at all if it only applied to the attack. So I'd assume it must also apply to counterattacks.

The wording is different, though. I only have the German version, but assuming that the text was translated more or less verbatim, it's

Quote:
... they attack as blue rank ...

vs
Quote:
... gain Toughness during their attacks ...


There are several places (no time to dig out examples, sorry) in the rules where "attack as", "defend as", "gain keyword" are explicitly differentiated, so I have no doubt that "attack as" only refers to the attack roll.

If the first card's text was ... treated as blue rank during ..., I'd follow your interpretation.
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Benjamin Symons
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I'll add to Argwinkle's points by quoting the literal text on both cards:

Quote:
Order 2 units. If the units are different ranks, they attack as blue rank units (before modifiers).


VS

Quote:
Order 2 units. If the units are different ranks, they gain Toughness 1 during their attacks this turn.
 
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Bartosz Popow
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To be honest I see similarities between Toughness-order and that blue-rank-order. Either counterattack is a part of "my" attack or it is not. Depending on the answer either both or none abilities should work.

Definition of Toughness is different though. It basically works for all attacks rolled against "me", not only "during my attack".
 
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Benjamin Symons
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The card says that the unit attacks as blue rank, not that it counts as blue rank for any other purpose (like defending).
Perhaps we should take this question to FFG or the designer?
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J C
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argwinkle wrote:

There are several places (no time to dig out examples, sorry) in the rules where "attack as", "defend as", "gain keyword" are explicitly differentiated, so I have no doubt that "attack as" only refers to the attack roll.
If the first card's text was ... treated as blue rank during ..., I'd follow your interpretation.


Examples could be: keyword Heavy Armor ("A unit with this keyword defends as if it were a unit of one rank higher.") or Formations from Last Hearth Lancers (WotN, "This unit defends as one rank lower against ranged attackers.").
Having this in mind, I think Sammy has answered in his first post in this thread.
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Nathan Chaney
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Yeah, my issue with it is both the toughness and the blue rank cards explicitly only say attack. While one of them clearly must also apply to defense, it only says attack. It just as clearly doesn't include the word "defend". So if we allow one of them to also count for defense, then how can we justify not allowing the other one to count for defense?
 
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Ruanek wrote:
Yeah, my issue with it is both the toughness and the blue rank cards explicitly only say attack. While one of them clearly must also apply to defense, it only says attack. It just as clearly doesn't include the word "defend". So if we allow one of them to also count for defense, then how can we justify not allowing the other one to count for defense?


I think the same reason we understand Heavy Armor doesn't apply to attacks too.
At the risk of being totallly wrong, IMO each card has different connotations (after all, English is not my first language, in Spanish cards there are no doubts). Let's see:

Quote:
Order 2 units. If the units are different ranks, they attack as blue rank units (before modifiers).

Here, word "attack" is a verb, so I understand only the action of attack is affected.

Quote:
Order 2 units. If the units are different ranks, they gain Toughness 1 during their attacks this turn.

Here, word "attacks" is a noun, so I understand the whole process is affected (words "during" and "this turn" reinforce my thoughts).
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Nathan Chaney
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At this point we're just arguing semantics, though. What really matters is what FFG intended them to mean. Is there a way to ask them?

Because if we're just going by semantics, there are valid arguments for either side. But that won't help us to find the real answer. I do doubt, though, that FFG intended for there to be a difference in interpretation between verb and noun usage. This isn't literature.
 
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Ruanek wrote:
At this point we're just arguing semantics, though. What really matters is what FFG intended them to mean. Is there a way to ask them?
Because if we're just going by semantics, there are valid arguments for either side. But that won't help us to find the real answer. I do doubt, though, that FFG intended for there to be a difference in interpretation between verb and noun usage. This isn't literature.

The context of each phrase is important too but, you're right, it is pointless arguing about semantics, especially in a foreign language. So, I can only say: That is my answer, and if you don't like it... well, I have other : http://fantasyflightgames.com/edge_faq.asp (no literature involved)
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Ian McCarthy
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I have no doubt that Benjamin's first answer is correct, but certainly use JC's link to confirm with the designer if you want the official answer. Rob is a great guy and usually responds quickly.
 
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Nathan Chaney
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I got a response. (That was pretty fast!)

My question:

Ruanek wrote:
Kevan Lannister has a card that says "Order 2 units. If the units are different ranks, they attack as blue rank units (before modifiers)." Does this also mean that if those units are counterattacked, they defend as blue rank units (meaning blue die results are needed to hit them)?

One of Kevan's other cards says "Order 2 units. If the units are different ranks, they gain Toughness 1 during their attacks this turn." This would imply that even though the card says attack, it also applies to counterattacks, since Toughness 1 would otherwise be useless.


The answer:

Jason Walden wrote:
For both instances, Kevan's cards do apply to both attacks and subsequent counterattacks.


It should probably be noted that this really doesn't change too much, since it only applies to a fairly specific situation (attacking with a specific command card, and then having a subsequent counterattack).
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Bartosz Popow
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Thanks! It implies that counterattack is part of "my" attack.
 
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Ruanek wrote:
I got a response. (That was pretty fast!)

My question:

Ruanek wrote:
Kevan Lannister has a card that says "Order 2 units. If the units are different ranks, they attack as blue rank units (before modifiers)." Does this also mean that if those units are counterattacked, they defend as blue rank units (meaning blue die results are needed to hit them)?

One of Kevan's other cards says "Order 2 units. If the units are different ranks, they gain Toughness 1 during their attacks this turn." This would imply that even though the card says attack, it also applies to counterattacks, since Toughness 1 would otherwise be useless.


The answer:

Jason Walden wrote:
For both instances, Kevan's cards do apply to both attacks and subsequent counterattacks.


It should probably be noted that this really doesn't change too much, since it only applies to a fairly specific situation (attacking with a specific command card, and then having a subsequent counterattack).


First of all, thanks for copy-paste the questioning: I am totally amazed by the response.
Now, here comes a new doubt: Do we play cards #3 and #4 of Great Jon Umber same way?
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Nathan Chaney
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KelemvorBGG wrote:
First of all, thanks for copy-paste the questioning: I am totally amazed by the response.
Now, here comes a new doubt: Do we play cards #3 and #4 of Great Jon Umber same way?


I'd think so; if I remember correctly the wording's fairly similar. I could ask, but I think it's pretty much the same question.

As a side note, I was going to take a look at those cards to check the wording but they're currently in use by my brother (we're in the middle of scenario 10 - he's Stark and I'm Lannister). So I can't check the wording for a day or two without cheating.
 
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Ian McCarthy
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Thanks for checking with FFG!

Who is Jason Walden?
 
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Nathan Chaney
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KenToad wrote:
Thanks for checking with FFG!

Who is Jason Walden?


His email signature said Game Producer.
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