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Subject: Newbie seeking advice on a Shub/Syndicate deck rss

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George
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Good day to all.

I'm in the process of learning the game and Shub appeals to me the most, since with all those fatties and is resource acceleration, it kinda reminds me of Forest in MtG, which was my favorite color back in the day. Syndicate, with all its cheap nice cards, its debuff aspect and the ability to neutralize annoying characters, seems like a nice complement to the All-Mother, so I've decided to put together a deck comprising of those two. The deck's main theme is somehow centered around having greater skill numbers than opposing characters, though, even if stories are resolved in the traditional way, the deck should be able to hold its ground. My problem is that its currently comprised of 54 cards and I cannot seem to be able to trim it down further. In addition, it sports only 12 Syndicate cards and I 'm not sure whether this is enough, even though The Festival should take care of any resource match problems.

Here it is (card costs in parentheses):

Characters (31)

2 Priestess of Bubastis (1)
2 One of the Thousand (1)
3 Ghoulish Predator (2)
2 Clover Club Torch Singer (2)
2 Overzealous Initiate (2)
2 Hungry Dark Young (3)
2 The Mother’s Hand (3)
3 Insect Swarm (3)
2 Elite Hit Squad (3)
2 Mr. David Pan (3)
2 Y’Golonac (4)
2 Dhole Ant-Lion (4)
2 Small Ghouls (5)
3 Nug (5)

Events (9)

3 Tear Gas (1)
2 Shocking Transformation (2)
2 Burrowing Beneath (2)
2 Even Here She Dwells (2)

Supports (14)

2 Snow Graves (0)
3 The Festival (1)
3 Bound and Gagged (1)
3 Parallel Universe (1)
3 Under the Porch (3)

Any advice on how to make it more appealing? Mind you, I have only 2 copies of each card in the CS and the SoA.

Many thanks.
 
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Carthoris Pyramidos
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Drop some supports. A 0.45 support-character ratio is excessive.
 
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George
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1. Which ones do you suggest? The Festival is out of the question and Under the Porch is just huge with Nug and very useful with the Small Ghouls, whereas, if I reduce the B&G, my amount of Syndicate cards will be further reduced. What would you do in my place?

2. Which would be a good ratio? 3 characters for 1 support?

3. Do you believe I really need additional domains? It's the reason the Initiate is there, who combo's finely with Even Here... The cards that may utilize an extra domain would be the Singer, the Y'Golonac and the Squad. Plus the various one-drops of course. And let's not forget that, with extra domains, Nug's terrific response maximizes in value. Are those reasons enough to merit extra domain(s)?

Thanks.
 
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1. Based on your own analysis, you could lose Snow Graves and a Parallel Universe or two. You might consider going down to just 2x Under the Porch. It's an expensive enough card that there will be a small window in which it will have the feature of accelerating play. Otherwise, it makes a nice standing threat. ("What have I got under the porch? Wanna find out?")

2. Yeah. Unless you've built in some hideously clever combos, 0.3 is plenty of supports-to-characters.

3. It's pretty rare for me to go for an extra domain, and it doesn't look like a must for this deck. An accessory for Nug that you might want is some Forms of the Ether.
 
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George
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1. What if I added CS R.U. Pickman to the bunch instead of, let's say, the Ant-Lions? Would that, plus all the others already mentioned, justify adding extra domains? He's a terrific control card, albeit with a costly effect, plus he's a Cultist.

2. If yes, would the 2 Initiates be enough or should I add 2 Eldritch Nexuses as well? Or, even with the Pickman addition, just skip the whole extra domain thing altogether?

3. Forms of the Ether or Slime Covered Dhole, which is also a monster?
 
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David Boeren
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First question: Have you played this deck yet? If so, tell us about it. If not, you probably want to do this at your first opportunity as that's the best way to start getting a feel for what you want to cut.


Serazu wrote:
Do you believe I really need additional domains? It's the reason the Initiate is there, who combo's finely with Even Here... The cards that may utilize an extra domain would be the Singer, the Y'Golonac and the Squad. Plus the various one-drops of course. And let's not forget that, with extra domains, Nug's terrific response maximizes in value. Are those reasons enough to merit extra domain(s)?


I would say probably not. There can be a tendency for new players to get a bit infatuated about extra domains, but most decks don't need them. At some point in the game you'll be mostly top-decking and 3 domains is enough to play 2 cards and trigger one bonus effect. Do you consistently need more than that? Doesn't look like it. Also, other than maybe Torch Singer the abilities don't seem to be central to what you want to do. Finally, maximizing Nug isn't important because what would you do with extra size 3 domains that you can't do with size 1 domains? Usually nothing. Since you're just learning I would especially recommend sticking to only 3 domains for now so you can get a proper foundation and not end up feeling reliant on extras. If I did have a deck that used a ton of "pay 1" effects I might put in 2 "add-a-domain" cards. No deck needs 4+ of these type of cards.


Usually in a dual faction deck with a clear major/minor faction I try to have around 17 cards minimum, but as you pointed out The Festival should take care of resource match issues so I'm not too worried about that.

As was already mentioned, you probably have too many supports. I think this is the first time I've ever heard of a character-to-support ratio though. Anyway, I usually advice beginners that out of a 50 card deck to have about 30 characters and maybe a little more events than supports. That last part is rather hazy though as it depends a lot on the deck. But, beginners can sometimes get stuck in calculating and more events helps with that.

Anyway... Snow Graves can probably be cut, it doesn't do anything central to the deck design. Under the Porch could be cut down to 2x pretty easily. That would put you at 11 Supports which is a bit more reasonable but what's more important than exact numbers is that you're cutting the fluff you don't need.

For events, the standout for me is Even Here She Dwells. If you play some test games, keep track of how often you play this. I'm going to guess "never to almost never". You've got a deck with reasonable amounts of acceleration, why should you expect your opponent to often have more characters than you? If he does, have you designed the deck to maximize the number of Cultist/Monster characters? No, not really. So - this can probably be cut.

Keep track of how often Tear Gas generates a kill for you too. If the answer is "not too often" then I would look at maybe replacing it with something else - possibly an Exhaustion event that you can use to temporarily deal with a problem enemy character.

For characters, I'd think about dropping or reducing One of the Thousand. A zero skill character isn't that good of an asset for a deck that wants to be skill based. You've also got several 2-skill characters in the deck that you could look at replacing with a higher skilled character. Especially look for good skill on cost 2 characters, as these can play free with Hungry Dark Young who I think could be doing a little more for you. Don't just look at guys with HUGE skill. Look at guys who have good skill for their cost. Then you can adjust your cost curve up/down and work on having better Hungry Dark Young targets.
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George
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Solid pieces of advice all these. Many thanks to both of you. The

Quote:
Since you're just learning I would especially recommend sticking to only 3 domains for now so you can get a proper foundation and not end up feeling reliant on extras.


especially is ingenious.

So, how about this:

Characters (33)
2 Priestess of Bubastis (1)
2 One of the Thousand (1)
3 Ghoulish Predator (2)
2 Clover Club Torch Singer (2)
2 Diseased Sewer Rats (2)
2 Julia Brown (2)
2 Hungry Dark Young (3)
2 The Mother’s Hand (3)
3 Insect Swarm (3)
2 Grasping Cthonian (3)
2 Elite Hit Squad (3)
2 Mr. David Pan (3)
2 Y’Golonac (4)
2 Small Ghouls (5)
3 Nug (5)

Events (5)
3 Tear Gas (1)
2 Burrowing Beneath (2)

Supports (12)
3 The Festival (1)
3 Bound and Gagged (1)
3 Parallel Universe (1)
3 Under the Porch (3)

One of the Thousand is there for acceleration purposes, not for winning stories. What you said about Even Here... gave me the idea of adding 2 Diseased Sewer Rats. Coupled with 3 Tear Gas and my acceleration shenanigans will surely help to keep me ahead in board position till my fatties hit the board. I've also added 2 Julia Brown, who has an excellent cost/skill ratio plus slims down my deck. I removed the Ant-Lions, but I'm not sure if it's the right decision. Should they return in expense of something else, like the Cthonians or Julia for instance, since she's also neutral and does not synergize well with the swarm? Then again, she's affordable, even at a higher cost and may always enter play with the Hungry Young.
 
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David Boeren
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Serazu wrote:
One of the Thousand is there for acceleration purposes, not for winning stories.


Oh, of course. But it's also nice when cards can do multiple jobs. Best thing to do is try her out and see how things go.


Serazu wrote:
What you said about Even Here... gave me the idea of adding 2 Diseased Sewer Rats. Coupled with 3 Tear Gas and my acceleration shenanigans will surely help to keep me ahead in board position till my fatties hit the board.


That makes sense, probably a good change although Rats do have low skill. At some point though you've just gotta test the deck and see how it works for you. Things that sounded good on paper sometimes turn out to depend on finding too many cards at the right time, or rely a lot on cards your opponent might be able to neutralize, or the cost curve isn't running as smoothly as you want, etc...


Serazu wrote:
I've also added 2 Julia Brown, who has an excellent cost/skill ratio plus slims down my deck. I removed the Ant-Lions, but I'm not sure if it's the right decision. Should they return in expense of something else, like the Cthonians or Julia for instance, since she's also neutral and does not synergize well with the swarm? Then again, she's affordable, even at a higher cost and may always enter play with the Hungry Young.


Grasping Cthonian is a solid card, bringing a character into play and destroying a support in one play is very efficient. Julia also brings in some Investigation which might be valuable at non-Skill stories. I'd go with her and see how it goes. Coming out much earlier and fitting with Hungry Dark Young is a nice asset.

btw, if you still need room you could probably cut a copy each of Under the Porch and Nug (since you can search for him w/ Under the Porch anyway). That gives you effectively 4 copies of him if you need them, six seems a bit surplus. Then you could fit in a couple more Event cards which are currently a bit low (and even there Tear Gas is more like a Support than a typical Event).
 
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George
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dboeren wrote:

btw, if you still need room you could probably cut a copy each of Under the Porch and Nug (since you can search for him w/ Under the Porch anyway). That gives you effectively 4 copies of him if you need them, six seems a bit surplus. Then you could fit in a couple more Event cards which are currently a bit low (and even there Tear Gas is more like a Support than a typical Event).


If Under the Porch was there exclusively for Nug, I'd probably cut it to 2. But it also allows me to use the Cthonian's and the Ghouls' effect an extra time, which is very-very nice. Hence, the 3X representation in the deck. Unless you consider a good idea to cut its third copy plus the Nug's third one to add two Shocking Transformations. I'm not too familiar with the game yet, but, even though I admit its effect is great, I'm not entirely sold on this card. Imagine sacrificing a character and paying 3 just to have it cancelled. Seems like a big wasted investment. Unless I got it all wrong. Like you said, it's always best to test things in action, since many a time they tend to differentiate substantially from what I initially had in mind. This goes in all card games. Apart from that, I'm a little reluctant to cut Nug's third copy, since I want at least 10 cards, the 1/5 of my deck, to revolve around economy (2 Priestesses, 2 Ones, 3 Nugs, 3 Festivals). Unless I got that wrong too, especially in this case where my deck is not that expensive.

Bottom line:

What's your opinion? 1 Under the Porch and 1 Nug for 2 Shocking Transformations? Or for another event, a Syndicate one perhaps to increase its representation in my deck? It's just, if I remove one Porch, I 'll be stuck with only 2 copies of search effects for specific cards that I may need at any given time. The Festival can do that of course, but then I'll have to add Ethers, like Carthoris already suggested (albeit for another reason), or the Dholes.
 
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Carthoris Pyramidos
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If I were you, I'd totally drop one, or even two Nugs in favor of Grasping Cthonian and/or Slime-Covered Dhole. Nug is unique and invulnerable and an Ancient One immune to many other effects, so once you get a Nug into play, your other Nugs are largely wasted draws. Add to that the fact that Under the Porch will help get him to the top of your deck, and the disadvantages outweigh the advantages of the card frequency.

Of course, I'm a little extreme in my perspective on this issue. I avoid using multiple copies of unique cards no matter how good they are, unless the existence of multiples as such confers some special function (e.g. Ghatanotha IotF). My theory is that there are a lot of awesome cards out there, and I'd rather have 3 different unique characters in my deck than three copies of one, no matter how fine. When playing, if I find it easy to use a card as a resource, I feel like I have fallen short in my design of the deck.

One of the advantages of Shocking Transformation is that it's an event, so it can be played during the story phase to upset your opponent's plans. (They think they know what they're up against, until the Shocking Transformation.)
 
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George
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Carthoris wrote:
Under the Porch will help get him to the top of your deck


?

 
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Since you're going the Syndicate skill-bruiser route with this deck, you really ought to review some of the related event cards besides Tear Gas:

Get on Yer Feet! (as overpaid at 2)
Strung Up! (cost 2)
Like a Moth (cost 2)
 
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George
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Carthoris wrote:
Since you're going the Syndicate skill-bruiser route with this deck, you really ought to review some of the related event cards besides Tear Gas:

Get on Yer Feet! (as overpaid at 2)
Strung Up! (cost 2)
Like a Moth (cost 2)


Yeah, the problem is that I'll be left with only two search-for-a-specific-character cards this way.

Other than that, a most curious idea crossed my mind:

Should I splash 2-3 copies of a bomb card belonging to a third faction, like Called by Azathoth for instance? The Festival certainly allows that.
 
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Serazu wrote:
Carthoris wrote:
Under the Porch will help get him to the top of your deck

?

Well, in your hand, rather. (Beyond the top of your deck, as it were.)

Ultimately, though, David's right. You just have to play the deck a few times before you know for sure which cards will just be taking up space, and which kinds of cards you're hurting for if they haven't been supplied.
 
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Serazu wrote:
Imagine sacrificing a character and paying 3 just to have it cancelled. Seems like a big wasted investment. Unless I got it all wrong. Like you said, it's always best to test things in action, since many a time they tend to differentiate substantially from what I initially had in mind. This goes in all card games. Apart from that, I'm a little reluctant to cut Nug's third copy, since I want at least 10 cards, the 1/5 of my deck, to revolve around economy (2 Priestesses, 2 Ones, 3 Nugs, 3 Festivals). Unless I got that wrong too, especially in this case where my deck is not that expensive.


I think you're carrying in some expectations from Magic here. Cancels are possible, but are pretty uncommon in this game. Hastur tends to have more of them than other factions do but it's not something I'd generally worry about. Also, the concept of an economy is pretty different too. A lot of decks don't have any special "economy" cards in the sense of domain-builders or discounters. Most others have 2-3 copies of a single card. More than that mostly only seen in Shub or maybe in Deep Ones themed decks. Most factions don't even HAVE domain building cards, that's just a Shub specialty. Domains aren't quite like money either, you can't save up or move funds around. It's more about your cost curve and planning for the ramping up of resources, and a good chunk of that is in-game decisions rather than at deck design time too. This kind of deck is a bit odd with resourcing, but normally you want to go into the game with a rough plan of what order you'll likely build your domains and when you'll stop building them so you can keep more of the cards you draw too.


Carthoris wrote:
If I were you, I'd totally drop one, or even two Nugs in favor of Grasping Cthonian and/or Slime-Covered Dhole. Nug is unique and invulnerable and an Ancient One immune to many other effects, so once you get a Nug into play, your other Nugs are largely wasted draws. Add to that the fact that Under the Porch will help get him to the top of your deck, and the disadvantages outweigh the advantages of the card frequency.


Slime Covered Dhole also helps solve the potential problem that Nug makes you resource cards you didn't choose to. What if you've got 2x something in your deck and one copy accidentally gets Nugged into a domain? Well, shoot. Hope you can find the other when you need it, or that you didn't make it an initial resource expecting to find the other later. But yeah, I wouldn't include more than 2 Nugs maximum and 1 is probably fine if you keep the Under the Porches. If he does die, you can use Small Ghouls to put him back in your deck and Under the Porch him again if it comes to that but once you can afford big guys do you still NEED him? Maybe he's done his job already and you just let him go.


Carthoris wrote:
Of course, I'm a little extreme in my perspective on this issue. I avoid using multiple copies of unique cards no matter how good they are, unless the existence of multiples as such confers some special function (e.g. Ghatanotha IotF). My theory is that there are a lot of awesome cards out there, and I'd rather have 3 different unique characters in my deck than three copies of one, no matter how fine. When playing, if I find it easy to use a card as a resource, I feel like I have fallen short in my design of the deck.


I'm a little less extreme, I usually limit to 2x of a Unique character if they cost 3 or more. I figure if they're cheap I want one early and they tend to die off more so I'm OK with 3x sometimes of the little guys. If they're absolutely critical I could break the rule, say like for Mr. David Pan who actually is central to the deck type but with Shocking Transformation even that isn't as crucial.


Carthoris wrote:
One of the advantages of Shocking Transformation is that it's an event, so it can be played during the story phase to upset your opponent's plans. (They think they know what they're up against, until the Shocking Transformation.)


Very good point, and again one of the reasons I encourage beginners to take more events. Surprises for your opponent are almost always good for you because they upset their plans, causing them to lose characters or miss out on tokens they thought they were going to get.
 
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George
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I'm thinking of adding 3 X The Terror of the Tides. 4 Skill, nice icons, and effectively Toughness +1, all for three resources, without worrying whether I'll have a Cthulhu one attached to a domain, is a bargain and a nice addition to the deck. The Festival is not needed to fetch a matching resource either. Possibly removing 1 Nug + 2 Julias to put it in. What do you guys think?
 
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Serazu wrote:
I'm thinking of adding 3 X The Terror of the Tides.

Cool. I've never used Terror of the Tides out-of-faction before, but you make a good argument for it, especially in a skill-centric deck. And Even Here She Dwells can pull it too.
 
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George
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Carthoris wrote:
Serazu wrote:
I'm thinking of adding 3 X The Terror of the Tides.

Cool. I've never used Terror of the Tides out-of-faction before, but you make a good argument for it, especially in a skill-centric deck. And Even Here She Dwells can pull it too.


With him added, I'll have 15 potential targets for use with Even Here... The question now is whether to add the event and dismiss the Sewer Rats, thus letting the opponent to get ahead in board position while I empower my hand and slimming my deck or keep the Rats and control the early board with them, the Tear Gas, the B&G etc. at the expense of (potentially) empowering my hand and slimming my deck. Unless of course 15 valid targets, i.e. 30% of my deck, do not justify running the event and I should keep the rats.

What do you guys think?
 
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It seems like this may just be a personal preference issue. I would try a few games both ways and see what you like and how well Even Here She Dwells works for you when you do use it.

That at least is something you could test ahead of time. Pretend you're outnumbered, flip the cards, and see whether you would have gotten anything good enough to help tip the odds back in your favor. ie - multiple characters or if one character probably you're looking for someone decent sized like a cost 3+. Repeat 1-2 dozen times and see how the odds look.
 
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Right now I'm leaning towards the Rats. Targeted wounding is so good. I'll follow your advice and try both cards however.

Another question:

I do not yet have the Porch. I've found The Horror Beneath the Surface on the ebay, though it's the 40-card AP. It stills sports the Porches thrice; right?
 
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Yes, Under the Porch was 3x in the 40-card printing.
 
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George
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Many thanks to both of you. You've been extremely helpful. Cheers!
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Good luck with the deck, and let us know how it works out after some test games
 
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Sure thing, though it may take some time, since the co-gamers are out of town at the moment. Perhaps I'll try it in OCTGN, once I get the grasp of it.

btw, what's best in this deck, 3 Terror of the Tides + 2 Grasping Cthonians or 2 Terrors + 3 Cthonians? Support destruction is so good and, with 3 Cthonians and 2 BB, I'll probably be able to discard any annoying support at any given time. The Terrors are better in a high-skill deck however. Unless of course I completely remove the 2 BB and 1 Terror to make room for a third Cthonian and 2 events, like Even Here... or Shocking Transformation. Any suggestions between the three? The second option seems to me the one which makes the deck most stalwart against outside threats, but I appreciate your opinion anyway.
 
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To an extent this is trying to predict what your opponent might bring which isn't easy to do.

Shocking Transformation can turn one of your weenies into the full version of Terror of the Tides though, so that's worth trying to make some room for. If you use 3xGrasping Cthonian and 2xTerrors then perhaps you can reduce or remove Burrowing Beneath to make space.

I should also mention this... While it's best to have the minimum 50 cards in a finished deck - your deck isn't finished yet. At this stage, it's perfectly OK to have a bigger deck because you want to test different options. As you play, you should be taking note of what cards you rely on a lot and what cards seldom get played. Over the course of testing you'll gradually slim out the cards that seem less useful until you're back down to 50.

So, you might actually want to go for more like 54-56 cards in your first cut because you can test more cards in the same number of games and learn how you want to tune the deck faster. Of course, you're also trying to learn how to play the game at the same time - so don't get too hung up on "perfecting" your deck at the expense of that. Learning how the game works is more important than any single deck you might work on.
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