Recommend
4 
 Thumb up
 Hide
14 Posts

Twilight Struggle» Forums » Rules

Subject: Placing initial US IP outside of Europe rss

Your Tags: Add tags
Popular Tags: [View All]
Adam Deverell
Australia
Melbourne
Victoria
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Many tournaments allow for bidding. For example, the BGG Ladder Launch base bid is +3 IP for the US. This allows the US to place an extra 3 IP at the start of the game - anywhere on the board.

I have always believed this is unbalanced. All +IP due to bidding should be placed in Europe.

It seems to go against the rules of placing all IP in Europe at the start of the game.

Most US players place 1 of these IP in Iran – but I think this disadvantages the USSR player significantly. In my current game (and I’ve done it before) it allows the US to have presence in the Middle East vs no USSR presence and then play Middle East scoring as a headliner scoring for 4VP. If USSR does not have anything to place in the Middle East as a Headliner (Nasser) you cannot stop the US.

This makes it a very gamey situation. The board is set up so that NO power can gain sole presence at the start of turn 1 in any country, no matter the card draw. The USSR needs the advantage early, and allowing the US sole presence in the Middle East because of card draw is unfair.

Do you allow placement of IP due to a bid outside of Europe?
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Chris Linneman
Canada
Vancouver
BC
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Current standard in the wargameroom league is +2 anywhere the US already has IPs. I haven't found this to unduly advantage the US, and last year's +1 adjustment didn't seem to favour the US enough (USSR had 55/45 win rate). I think you are overestimating the importance of giving up a headline for 4VPs.
4 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Max DuBoff
United States
New Brunswick
New Jersey
flag msg tools
"My name is Ozymandias, king of kings: / Look on my works, ye Mighty, and despair!"
badge
Habeo in animo vivere in perpetuum aut mori dum conor.
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
red_gamster wrote:
Most US players place 1 of these IP in Iran – but I think this disadvantages the USSR player significantly. In my current game (and I’ve done it before) it allows the US to have presence in the Middle East vs no USSR presence and then play Middle East scoring as a headliner scoring for 4VP. If USSR does not have anything to place in the Middle East as a Headliner (Nasser) you cannot stop the US.


Yep, that's kinda the point.

P.S. Trust Chris. He knows what he's talking about. Take my word for it.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Adam Deverell
Australia
Melbourne
Victoria
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Quote:
I think you are overestimating the importance of giving up a headline for 4VPs.


I'm not worried about the 4VP, more so the loss of the Middle East Scoring AND losing 4VP at the same time.

Perhaps I've been playing with Optional Card too long (this is the first game in years I've played without them) and underestimate the strength of the USSR when not using the optional cards, but it seems to me that the USSR needs to dominate either Middle East or Asian scoring first up to give them a chance in the latter part of the game. Giving a freebie 4 VP to the US and possibly not seeing Middle East Scoring until Mid War seems a bit rough.

The initial set up gives the USSR a shot at Italy, but placing the extra IP kills that off (you can get 4IP into Italy) more or less. That leaves Iran - but that's diluted with US able to play Middle East as a headliner.

Those figures from the wargameroom.com seems to prove me wrong, though. Perhaps a better thread would have been to ask why some players are against the optional cards? I've always seen them as giving the US for more chance of winning the game without the need for IP bids. Not sure why so many players choose not to use them.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Nacho Facello
Uruguay
Montevideo
Montevideo
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
It's a bid. If you feel it's too powerful, bid low, and you'll end up getting the (in your opinion) advantaged US position.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Max DuBoff
United States
New Brunswick
New Jersey
flag msg tools
"My name is Ozymandias, king of kings: / Look on my works, ye Mighty, and despair!"
badge
Habeo in animo vivere in perpetuum aut mori dum conor.
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
red_gamster wrote:
Those figures from the wargameroom.com seems to prove me wrong, though. Perhaps a better thread would have been to ask why some players are against the optional cards? I've always seen them as giving the US for more chance of winning the game without the need for IP bids. Not sure why so many players choose not to use them.


The optional cards are interesting to play with, and I use them in almost all my games, but I think you may be overestimating their balancing power. Think about it this way:

In the Early War, there are three optional cards.

Cambridge Five can be really useful when infiltrating a region (and can even help stop the dreaded 4 VP swing from Middle East that's been a bit overestimated here). It's a USSR card.

Special Relationship is relatively useless until NATO is played, and NATO often does not come into play until at least the Mid War. It becomes a decently good card once NATO arrives, but NATO may never be played (US should always use it for ops) and UK has to be controlled by US either way (so Socialist Governments or Suez Crisis can negate Special Relationship entirely).

NORAD is a pretty good card, but it often should not be played. IF USSR gets it, he should ditch it on the Space Race (especially if he holds it until Turn 3). If US gets it, he often needs the 3 immediate ops more than he needs a possible aid in the future. NORAD is much more costly than it looks for US. He needs Canada for starters, and then he needs to actually go into places his opponent controls. Besides all this, if USSR draws Quagmire, he can just cancel NORAD.

In the Mid War, there are two optional cards.

Our man In Tehran is quite useful. It can nicely get cards out of the deck. It can also do nothing. Generally worth playing though.

Don't even get me started on Che. Sure, it can be useless if played at the beginning of Turn 4, but if Che comes in Turn 6, for example, the US better watch his back, because some democracies are gonna fall. CHE works especially well against Uruguay, the 1-stability countries surrounding Cuba, and the non-battlegrounds in Africa. There's no way Che helps the US.

In the Late War, there are two optional cards (and Cambridge Five becomes unusable).

AWACS Sale to Saudis can be useful to help US get into Saudi Arabia, and preventing Muslim Revolution is never bad, but if US has Saudi Arabia or USSR gets the card, it's often not too helpful for US.

Yuri and Samantha has some potential, but it's rarely potent (although it can on occasion be quite effective). USSR, of course, has to get it though.

Overall, the optional cards are worth about 1 extra influence point to the US (case in point: The Wargameroom league was at +3 to US before optionals and recently settled again at +2, which many of the experienced players seem to agree with). The optional cards help a little, but they don't balance the game on their own.
7 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Björn von Knorring
Sweden
Uppsala
flag msg tools
badge
The picture is a swedish cartoon-figure Herman Hedning. English info here: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herman_Hedning
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
MD1616 wrote:
The optional cards help a little, but they don't balance the game on their own.


Thanks. I have never understand why the optional cards should balance out things for US. I like to play with them but I think there are equally good USSR cards as there are US cards.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Max DuBoff
United States
New Brunswick
New Jersey
flag msg tools
"My name is Ozymandias, king of kings: / Look on my works, ye Mighty, and despair!"
badge
Habeo in animo vivere in perpetuum aut mori dum conor.
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
myth1202 wrote:
MD1616 wrote:
The optional cards help a little, but they don't balance the game on their own.


Thanks. I have never understand why the optional cards should balance out things for US. I like to play with them but I think there are equally good USSR cards as there are US cards.


Yeah, obviously there are more US cards in the optional group, but Che is the real kicker (along with the fact that many of the optionals are only good in limited number of circumstances.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Sam Carroll
United States
Urbana
Illinois
flag msg tools
Soli Deo Gloria!
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
One reason is that they enlarge - and thus dilute - the strongly pro-Soviet Early War deck.
7 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Riku Riekkinen
Finland
Jyväskylä
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmb
nachof wrote:
It's a bid. If you feel it's too powerful, bid low, and you'll end up getting the (in your opinion) advantaged US position.


In many cases this is not true. Currently ladder & wargameroom apply league fixed "bid" for all games.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Jason Sherlock
United States
Anaheim Hills
California
flag msg tools
badge
Admin @ www.cigargeeks.com
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
spartax wrote:
One reason is that they enlarge - and thus dilute - the strongly pro-Soviet Early War deck.


That is their main function. It is amazing how much extra breathing room those 3 extra cards give in Early War
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Max DuBoff
United States
New Brunswick
New Jersey
flag msg tools
"My name is Ozymandias, king of kings: / Look on my works, ye Mighty, and despair!"
badge
Habeo in animo vivere in perpetuum aut mori dum conor.
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
jackalope wrote:
spartax wrote:
One reason is that they enlarge - and thus dilute - the strongly pro-Soviet Early War deck.


That is their main function. It is amazing how much extra breathing room those 3 extra cards give in Early War


They're good for US, but they're not that good. Sorry, but it just bothers me when people try to give too much weight to the optional cards and assert that they single-handedly balance the game
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Jamie Pollock
Scotland
Edinburgh
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Where are the Wargameroom stats located? Are they public?
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Charles Robinson
Canada
Timmins
Ontario
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
The results of the matches are public, but the pages don't list compiled stats, so if you want that you may have to do it yourself.

Go to wargameroom.com, click on the link for "Wargameroom Leagues" and then click on the link for the Twilight Struggle league. Scroll down past the division standings, and you can see a log of all of the games played this season. All previous seasons are also there too (the links are at the very bottom of the page). The league default balancing option for each season is listed directly above the list of the regular season match results for that season. Playoff match results are at the top of each page (the current season lists none because it hasn't got that far yet).

Hope that's useful.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Front Page | Welcome | Contact | Privacy Policy | Terms of Service | Advertise | Support BGG | Feeds RSS
Geekdo, BoardGameGeek, the Geekdo logo, and the BoardGameGeek logo are trademarks of BoardGameGeek, LLC.