Ossian Grr aka "Josh"
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(Cross-posted to The Torn Signpost)

I really don't like Personal Goals, conceptually.
They are completely backwards. Most of the time, even though it's called a personal goal, you have pretty much no incentive to fulfill its conditions unless the listed resource is specifically low. And due to the replacement clause, you are unlikely to even think about some of them until after Distance 6.

So here's my simple idea, instead of "Lose this resource at the end of the game" clause (untested):

Personal Goal variant rule wrote:
At the end of the game, reveal all unfulfilled Personal Goals.
For each unfulfilled Personal Goal, destroy one raptor. If there are no raptors, lower one resource with the lowest value by 1 instead.


Note that this still only matters in a "Humans Win" situation. An unrevealed Cylon with a Personal Goal follows the same rules.

I think that this simple change isn't overpowered, yet still gives players just enough push to try and fulfill their personal goals early and often.

It also gives more incentive for protecting raptors after scouting is irrelevant, if you have Goals that may not be achievable.

Your thoughts?
 
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Kwijiboe
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I think what ruins personal goals is people informing others of their personal goal. There should be absolute secrecy of these goals because it removes intrigue from the game.

On topic, I think your idea may come at the cost of people ignoring the use of scouts. Something that people already ignore. I think people should be encouraged to scout because it adds intrigue to the game. People often don't do it however, I never understand why not.
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Ossian Grr aka "Josh"
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Kwijiboe wrote:
I think what ruins personal goals is people informing others of their personal goal. There should be absolute secrecy of these goals because it removes intrigue from the game.

On topic, I think your idea may come at the cost of people ignoring the use of scouts. Something that people already ignore. I think people should be encouraged to scout because it adds intrigue to the game. People often don't do it however, I never understand why not.


Sounds like your experience with Scouting varies from mine. In my games, Scouting happens all the time, and I think this would encourage more Strategic Plannings being played on Scouting Missions.

As an aside: What are the odds that a user whose username is based off of a TV Scrabble joke replies to another user whose name is based off of a TV Scrabble joke?
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Paul W
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In the base game I find scouts get used a lot, but less often in Exodus for sure (at least with the CFB in play).
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Ossian Grr aka "Josh"
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Discussions of scouting aside, I might still try this variant out next time if there's no explicitly negative comments on it (and if I get to play another game before Daybreak comes out)...
 
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Robert Stewart
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If you really want personal goals to be personal, you need the consequences of not completing them to be personal (maybe "draw a trauma token for each incomplete personal goal you hold"?).

The thought behind personal goals appears to be one of encouraging humans to try to do Cylon-like things in order to give Cylons more cover and try to handicap the humans a little. The problem with the current version is that the correct play is usually to ignore them and try to guard the matching resource rather than to try to complete them - just spending the action to cash one in is going to carry a non-negligible cost.
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rmsgrey wrote:
If you really want personal goals to be personal, you need the consequences of not completing them to be personal (maybe "draw a trauma token for each incomplete personal goal you hold"?).

The thought behind personal goals appears to be one of encouraging humans to try to do Cylon-like things in order to give Cylons more cover and try to handicap the humans a little. The problem with the current version is that the correct play is usually to ignore them and try to guard the matching resource rather than to try to complete them - just spending the action to cash one in is going to carry a non-negligible cost.
Maybe the variant that lets you use a Movement to reveal them instead may moreso be in order. I do like how this opens up the possibility, for the first time, of being a revealed human without having to execute someone.

Another issue is while they've been rare, PGs have killed humans in cases where the game would've been won. At that late in the game though, there's no way to reveal it with so many turns in between. For example, there are cases where fuel's on the chopping block, but as non-admiral, you can't do much about that.
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Chris Hurd
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I agree with Robert about the thematic elements, but not necessarily the mechanical ones.

rmsgrey wrote:
The thought behind personal goals appears to be one of encouraging humans to try to do Cylon-like things in order to give Cylons more cover and try to handicap the humans a little.


I personally don't think there's a way to implement a personal loss within the game in a fulfilling way. Nor do I think that such an implementation would fit the show. There is no case where an individual bad decision or motivation causes a small-scale loss. Rather, all of the characters' personality flaws have implications to the entire fleet.

If you need a concrete example, look at the "Use Caution" PG. I think it'd be really poor implementation for a single player to take a player-specific penalty for "Use Caution." It's supposed to have an effect on the entire fleet. That's what the card is.

Addressing the original concern, I think that it's worth exploring giving the PGs more teeth. I also don't like that people just ignore them. I would suggest that instead of "destroy one raptor" you change it to "destroy ALL raptors." That's a minor fix for Carlos' concern. Doing so creates a single free pass, rather than a potential of four.
 
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M. B. Downey
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Perhpas you could give some beenfit for completing the personal goal, aside from just taking away something if they're not completed.

Drawing two cards outside your skill check?
Look through (and then shuffle) the Destiny deck?
Etc.
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ackmondual wrote:
Maybe the variant that lets you use a Movement to reveal them instead may moreso be in order.


I think this could work well.
 
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a1bert wrote:
ackmondual wrote:
Maybe the variant that lets you use a Movement to reveal them instead may moreso be in order.


I think this could work well.


I still don't think this gives you enough incentive to try and fulfill them when they're otherwise unnecessary to the human win condition.

My problem-as-stated is calling them "Personal Goals" but giving you absolutely no urgency to try and achieve the goal conditions unless the particular resource is in jeopardy or unless you have a specific reason to need to reveal your non-Cylon Loyalty.

 
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jozxyqk wrote:
I still don't think this gives you enough incentive to try and fulfill them when they're otherwise unnecessary to the human win condition.

My problem-as-stated is calling them "Personal Goals" but giving you absolutely no urgency to try and achieve the goal conditions unless the particular resource is in jeopardy or unless you have a specific reason to need to reveal your non-Cylon Loyalty.


Another option is to make it more Ionian Nebula-ly. If you don't complete your personal goal, you lose, regardless of who wins. Harsh, but if that isn't a personal incentive, I don't know what is.
 
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downeymb wrote:
Another option is to make it more Ionian Nebula-ly. If you don't complete your personal goal, you lose, regardless of who wins. Harsh, but if that isn't a personal incentive, I don't know what is.


Especially harsh for that poor player who gets all of Revealed Baltar and Revealed Boomer's hand-me-down Personal Goal cards, along with their own, for up to 6 goals to fulfill.
(Then again, this is a pretty troublesome situation already robot)
 
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jozxyqk wrote:
a1bert wrote:
ackmondual wrote:
Maybe the variant that lets you use a Movement to reveal them instead may moreso be in order.


I think this could work well.


I still don't think this gives you enough incentive to try and fulfill them when they're otherwise unnecessary to the human win condition.

My problem-as-stated is calling them "Personal Goals" but giving you absolutely no urgency to try and achieve the goal conditions unless the particular resource is in jeopardy or unless you have a specific reason to need to reveal your non-Cylon Loyalty.

All in all, it should be optional more so than not. It'd be like saying a cylon can only win if he reveals. Of course, it's perfectly valid for a cylon to win without revealing.

When PGs do hit you, the shoe is on the other foot, and some feel helpless against it. I suppose their main utility could've been more geared towards 3p and 4p games where each player gets more turns. Either way, they seem to hit more when the game's about to close, and an obvious human is begging his teammates NOT to FTL.
 
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jozxyqk wrote:
downeymb wrote:
Another option is to make it more Ionian Nebula-ly. If you don't complete your personal goal, you lose, regardless of who wins. Harsh, but if that isn't a personal incentive, I don't know what is.


Especially harsh for that poor player who gets all of Revealed Baltar and Revealed Boomer's hand-me-down Personal Goal cards, along with their own, for up to 6 goals to fulfill.
(Then again, this is a pretty troublesome situation already robot)


You can always tailor the loyalty deck. I have done that a lot in the past. My typical 5 player game deck is 4 YANAC, 2 YAAC, 2 PG, 2 FF. Sometimes [4, 2, 3, 1].

Another option for the mechanic is to grant an extra action upon revealing a personal goal. That shows up elsewhere on the forums. Functions like the hangar deck. I'm surprised it hasn't come up in this discussion yet.
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hybridfive wrote:
Another option for the mechanic is to grant an extra action upon revealing a personal goal. That shows up elsewhere on the forums. Functions like the hangar deck. I'm surprised it hasn't come up in this discussion yet.
We'd argue we're surprised you didn't bring it up sooner
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Nicklas Roman
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We will be trying a variant where you get to discard a trauma token if you complete your PG.
 
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