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Subject: I'm sick of seeing the cost of drawing a card included in it's economic viability rss

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Drake Villareal
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This, and various other bad habits in our community are leading to poor meta-analyses of potentially useful cards.

Drawing cards is a sunk cost, that is - you will be drawing cards one way or another. Also, not every single card has to have "maximum theoretical efficiency" to be viable.

Plus, if all cards have a theoretical -1 because you had to draw it, why not just cancel it out and not bother with it?

Along the the same lines, why not also include an additional -1 as the cost of you missing the opportunity to gain a credit instead?

What is the point of looking at all cards as a -2, when numerous things like tempo, timing, momentum, combos, opportunity cost, sunk cost, and various other things ought to be weighed?

Consider this

In faction, Easy Mark is better than Sure Gamble.

What it lacks in 1 credit of gain, it makes up for in total LACK of situationality. That is, it can always be played, with 1 action, for 3 credits. Sure Gamble is another credit, sure. But oftentimes - it isn't worth the turn and half to play it from 0 credits and is instead either a dead card or a trap to waste time.(I'm not saying Sure Gamble is bad card by ANY means) The community should stop being so rigid in our evaluation of cards.
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Mychal
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Drawing is a partially sunk cost, and I'm not exactly understanding what you're saying with the -1/-2 costs, but in general I agree that 1click=1credit=1draw is a terrible way of evaluating cards.
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The cost of playing a card is:

1. One click to play the card.
2. Cost written on the card.
3. Reducing hand size by 1.

#3 is difficult to quantify, but it cannot be neglected. A simple way to account for it is that a hand of size N is worth N clicks. Therefore, when you reduce your hand size by 1, you effectively lose "1 click worth" of positional advantage.
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2 Easy Marks vs. Sure Gamble.

If you don't count the cost of the card (and the click), the 2 easy marks net you 6 vs. the Sure Gamble's 4.

Not to mention that the 'card cost' is actually significant in other ways.

For runners, cards are literally life. You need to keep your hand up to survive; every card you play forces you to draw another card eventually. Keep the card in your hand instead of playing it, and that's one fewer card you have to draw to refill your hand later.

For corp, cards are... less important, actually. Between the forced draw and the relative lack of utility relative to the runner, a corp card is less costly than a runner card. Unless you have agendas in your hand, of course.
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R N
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If you think people are going to stop including the cost to draw, you're gonna have a bad time.
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Martin Presley
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It's a useful analysis, and important information to have, but certainly not the be-all-end-all. Another is the idea that 1 click=1 credit=1 card in value, when various economic and draw accelerators exist.

The cost to draw can be essential, or it can be mostly irrelevant, depending on the cards you're comparing.
 
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Drake Villareal
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When examining 1 card in a vacuum, it has it's uses. When comparing cards to other cards though, things become a bit hazy, as timing is just as relevant as bottom-line output.
 
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Alejandro G.
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I get annoyed by it too... you're not alone.

Yes, yes we get it... "click to draw", blah blah blah. Would you ever just play your opening hand and never draw? Drawing is basically a given, but yet we still like to include it in everything.
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Wesley Kinslow
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I think it beats not including it at all.

If the card draw mechanism was fixed in the game (i.e. mandatory draw, 1 time per turn - like Magic) then it wouldn't be an issue. The fact that you're allowed to spend actions to draw any number of cards means that it should have some bearing on the "cost" of a card.

Should it be a full click's worth of consideration? I don't know about that - but disregarding it completely doesn't seem to be the best evaluation either.
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CD Harris
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xpiredsodapop wrote:
I get annoyed by it too... you're not alone.

Yes, yes we get it... "click to draw", blah blah blah. Would you ever just play your opening hand and never draw? Drawing is basically a given, but yet we still like to include it in everything.


I've had games as Gabe where I've drawn fewer than 5 cards but they're the exception. As I've said a few times on the podcast, since all cards drawn for a click have the same cost to draw, it doesn't really help much to include the click to draw in their cost. It's totally situational and therefore of little value as a standard part of evaluating a card.

If you're refilling your hand because you hit a Snare!, the click to draw is irrelevant to the card's value. But if you're topdecking, the click to draw can matter a lot; if you need money, every click to draw until you hit an econ card is a straight-up negative (since you could have just taken a bit with that click). And it makes sense to at least consider it when comparing economy cards since there's a benchmark to be measure against in just clicking for a bit. For most other cards, not so much.

Draw acceleration also affects the meaningfulness of clicking to draw cards vis-a-vis their total cost.

So, I don't see much utility in counting it in a vacuum. As with so many aspects of this game, it all comes down to the current state of the game. Yet the most common time I see it being mentioned is when evaluating middling and/or situational cards (I have yet to hear anyone complain that Scorched Earth costs 4, plus a click to play and a click to draw). Accordingly, I'd also like to hear less of it.
 
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Anon Y. Mous
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xpiredsodapop wrote:
I get annoyed by it too... you're not alone.

Yes, yes we get it... "click to draw", blah blah blah. Would you ever just play your opening hand and never draw? Drawing is basically a given, but yet we still like to include it in everything.


The best part is when people count it for the corp.
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But the issue is that you can get 1 credit without having to use up a card, so like wedgeex suggests, it still needs to be included in the evaluation in some form.



If your deck has a lot of efficient card draw, then credits and clicks for other actions become more valuable. If your deck has very efficient economy, then card draw and clicks for other actions becomes more valuable. And that is all going to effect how big of a deal it is to use up a card.

With good card draw, you don't worry about using up lots of cards, but if you use too many inefficient cards for other things, then you use up all your remaining clicks.
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Agha Ahsan
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I, too, am tired of it. However I have resigned myself to the fact that it is going to be included.
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Darney wrote:
I, too, am tired of it. However I have resigned myself to the fact that it is going to be included.
What in you opinion is the value (in clicks or otherwise) of, say, a 4-card hand vs. 3-card hand? I understand that it's very situational, so I use "value" in the sense of "average value", or "typical value".
 
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Skylar114 wrote:
Drawing is a partially sunk cost, and I'm not exactly understanding what you're saying with the -1/-2 costs, but in general I agree that 1click=1credit=1draw is a terrible way of evaluating cards.


Hrm?

Wikipedia wrote:
...a sunk cost is a retrospective (past) cost that has already been incurred and cannot be recovered.


Yep, drawn cards are sunk costs. No way to undraw a card and get that click back.

I'm firmly on the don't-count-the-click train. It's one thing to theorize about what prospective costs will be. But it's something else entirely once you've drawn that card. Once you draw that card, your prospective analysis becomes inaccurate.
 
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Bingo Little
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How about considering click to draw as a cost for cards where there aren'y 3-of in a deck and you are significantly less likely to have one in an opening hand. In a total theory of netrunner everything you could then calculate the credit value of andromeda's ability because of the increased probability that you have a given card in hand at the beginning and therefore negate its click to draw cost.

Also, click to draw gives a quantifiable way of describing why 1 ofs are bad. Because the draw becomes an investment only later in the game.
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vantageGT wrote:
Yep, drawn cards are sunk costs. No way to undraw a card and get that click back.


Yes, once you drew a card, it is a "sunk cost" and doesn't matter.

However, once you play a card, your hand size goes down by 1. You need to draw one card to get it back up to the same size, or otherwise account for the cost of having a smaller hand. How do you propose to do that? I don't think it's correct to ignore the smaller hand in calculations of card play costs.
 
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If it makes you feel better, almost all of the "analysis" I've seen is crap.

The timing, surprise and speed of credit gain almost always trump pure efficiency during actual play, but people tend to focus on efficiency alone.


 
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Lyrael Tyranous
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Honestly, card draw needs to be included in the value of a card. A very silly, but simple example would be a card that read:

'0 cost: Gain 2 credits'

Yes, I know its a silly card, but the point is, that's a card you drew in your hand. Now, you could play it, and gain two credits. If you took out the fact that you had to draw the card, it wouldn't be considered horrible, because for one click, you gain 2 credits. But you had to spend one click drawing the card. So it breaks even.

Same card:

'0 cost: Gain 1 credit'

Still a 0 cost card, and on the face of it, it's still not horrible, because you can play it for 0 cost, and gain 1 credit. But you had to spend 1 click drawing it, so its inefficient, because you if you had used the 2 clicks (1 to draw, and 1 to play) to gain credits, you would be up a credit.

Any analysis of a card has to be based on what it does for you. In this case, you can spend an action to gain 1 credit, draw 1 card, or play one card. All of those things cost you nothing. Any card has to be analyzed based on what it does for you when compared to the above three actions, which all cost you nothing.

Also, you have to consider that a lot of the people who now play Netrunner played it back in the day, and also played Magic forever. The analysis that is applied to Netrunner cards now has been applied to Magic The Gathering cards for years and years.
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Sebastian Barth
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FallenMajesty wrote:
A very silly, but simple example would be a card that read:

'0 cost: Gain 2 credits'

Like Infiltration? :P
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Justin
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rbelikov wrote:
vantageGT wrote:
Yep, drawn cards are sunk costs. No way to undraw a card and get that click back.


Yes, once you drew a card, it is a "sunk cost" and doesn't matter.

However, once you play a card, your hand size goes down by 1. You need to draw one card to get it back up to the same size, or otherwise account for the cost of having a smaller hand. How do you propose to do that? I don't think it's correct to ignore the smaller hand in calculations of card play costs.


Well you kind of hit on an important point here - you need to draw cards. You can't, generally, just decide to stop drawing and hope to win. For some decks, sure, you can stop once a functioning rig is online.

So the question is how to account for an activity that you absolutely MUST do? Lumping the draw into the cost of the card doesn't make sense to me. You HAD to draw it, it's sunk, and you will HAVE to draw more. That reality doesn't change the value of playing the card. Card draw is a cost of winning, not a cost of playing any one specific card.
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FallenMajesty wrote:
Honestly, card draw needs to be included in the value of a card. A very silly, but simple example would be a card that read:

'0 cost: Gain 2 credits'

Yes, I know its a silly card, but the point is, that's a card you drew in your hand. Now, you could play it, and gain two credits. If you took out the fact that you had to draw the card, it wouldn't be considered horrible, because for one click, you gain 2 credits. But you had to spend one click drawing the card. So it breaks even.

Same card:

'0 cost: Gain 1 credit'

Still a 0 cost card, and on the face of it, it's still not horrible, because you can play it for 0 cost, and gain 1 credit. But you had to spend 1 click drawing it, so its inefficient, because you if you had used the 2 clicks (1 to draw, and 1 to play) to gain credits, you would be up a credit.

Any analysis of a card has to be based on what it does for you. In this case, you can spend an action to gain 1 credit, draw 1 card, or play one card. All of those things cost you nothing. Any card has to be analyzed based on what it does for you when compared to the above three actions, which all cost you nothing.

Also, you have to consider that a lot of the people who now play Netrunner played it back in the day, and also played Magic forever. The analysis that is applied to Netrunner cards now has been applied to Magic The Gathering cards for years and years.


Nothing in there was an actual argument for including card draw as a cost.
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vantageGT wrote:
rbelikov wrote:
vantageGT wrote:
Yep, drawn cards are sunk costs. No way to undraw a card and get that click back.


Yes, once you drew a card, it is a "sunk cost" and doesn't matter.

However, once you play a card, your hand size goes down by 1. You need to draw one card to get it back up to the same size, or otherwise account for the cost of having a smaller hand. How do you propose to do that? I don't think it's correct to ignore the smaller hand in calculations of card play costs.


Well you kind of hit on an important point here - you need to draw cards. You can't, generally, just decide to stop drawing and hope to win. For some decks, sure, you can stop once a functioning rig is online.

So the question is how to account for an activity that you absolutely MUST do? Lumping the draw into the cost of the card doesn't make sense to me. You HAD to draw it, it's sunk, and you will HAVE to draw more. That reality doesn't change the value of playing the card. Card draw is a cost of winning, not a cost of playing any one specific card.


Flawed logic is flawed.
You don't have to refill your hand if you never played a card.

Also, by your logic, Credits are a sunk cost as well:
- You need to gain credits.
- You can't generally just decide to stop gaining credits and hope to win.
- So lumping the credit cost into the cost of a card doesn't make sense to you, since you had to gain credits anyway and it's sunk. You will have to gain more credits anyway and that reality does not change the value of playing the card.


I'm implying that both cards and credits are a means to an end. Their costs (drawing, playing and gaining bits) can't be ignored.
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Jeremy Larner
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People are throwing around the term "sunk cost", and I'm not sure it really applies in this situation. During the game itself, the draw is a sunk cost, and you shouldn't take it into account when making decisions (although the reduction in your hand size is a cost and should be considered).

However, as far as I can see we're dealing here with deck design, and drawing isn't a "sunk cost" at all (it's not in the past, and therefore can't be a "sunk cost"). This doesn't address the issue of the extent to which drawing is necessary to win the game (which really depends on the deck being played), but I'm not sure use of the term "sunk cost" really helps discussion at all...
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Bingo Little
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Well, if we want to get technical on the term "cost" the draw has an "opportunity cost" which is a function of what your deck is composed of and the value of certain actions that could have taken the place of drawing whatever it is you just drew. In a hand full of boss events because you play criminal like everyone and their mother, click to credit or draw a card is incredibly inefficient compared to many proactive things you can do to control the flow of the game, probe ice, etc.
 
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