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Legendary: Dark City» Forums » Variants

Subject: Beast Hero Design rss

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Adam Rimgar
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I am going to be the first to admit that I probably don't have all of the answers on a first design of these heroes. In my opinion okami's been doing a great job. Nonetheless, for those who want to play with the original 5 roster for the X-Men, I'm going to at least give a start.

When I look at the other original members (Jean, Cyclops, Angel, and Iceman.) I see a couple patterns. They have a good amount of recruit material, and 2 (this follows the other X-Men as well) plenty of support for Blue. There's also plenty of Bystander rescuing potential between Jean and Angel, along with discarding effects, so I hope to balance all of those aspects.

Beast also isn't that much of a fighter, but when he does battle, he clobbers all, so it's only the Rare that truly dishes out the Fight potential

Also, I could still use a name for the Uncommon.

Beast

Affiliation: X-Men

Commons

“Security”

Rarity - Common
Hero Class - Tech
Cost - 5
Attack – 0
Recruitment – 3+
Effect:
(X-Men): Discard a card, +2 Recruit

Explanation: Security fits so many meanings on this card. It can be defensive inventions, a feeling of safety within the mansion, or just the comfort with yourself that has been a massive part of Beast's philosophy. All of these are reasons a Hero might be convinced to be recruited. The card itself is similar to Jean's common, 3 Recruit for 5 and a bonus. The trigger does require a discard, but with Cyclops, Angel, and Beast's other common it's not a big deal. Even without them this card is a contender for most efficient Recruiter in the game.


“Last Refuge”

Rarity - Common
Hero Class - Instinct
Cost - 3
Attack – 0+
Recruitment – 2
Effect: When this card is discarded due to the effect of another card, gain 3 Fight

Explanation: The diplomatic approach is always preferred, but sometimes it just doesn't get through, and violence becomes necessary. Beast still focuses more on recruit, but this gives some fight potential, kind of a mock versitle. Again, this is best paired with his other common, Angel, and Cyclops. It might be overpowered, 3 Fight is enough to take down a henchmen on it's own, but card cannot simply be discarded on a whim, and it's otherwise simply a Maria Hill. The name here is another double meaning, referencing one of Beast's catch phrases on violence, as well as the offer of a last refuge to be brought to, hence the recruitment.

Uncommon

“”

Rarity - Uncommon
Hero Class - Strength
Cost - 4
Attack – 0
Recruitment – 0
Effect: This card attaches to a villain in the city. That villain gains -2 Fight. Villains next to the attached villain in the city gain -1 Fight. When you defeat the villain this card is attached to, you gain it.

Explanation:: Kind of a combination of grappling and acrobatics, and again, not truly fighting directly, but at the same time bringing down foes easier. It also allows an element of teamwork, allowing you to pass the card along to a teammate who may need it. Maybe should be priced at a 5 or 6, but it doesn't really do anything itself. Don't have a name yet, but I'd like something describing Beast's fighting style. This isn't when he's fully unleashed though, so it's troubling.

Rare

"Oh My Stars!"

Rarity - Rare
Hero Class - Tech
Cost - 8
Attack – 6
Recruitment – 0+
Effect: (X-Men, X-Men) You may attach Bystanders from your Victory Pile to any Villains in the City. For each Bystander you rescue this turn, you gain +1 Recruit.


Explanation: This card conjures up diplomatic relations, i.e. critical situation, save lives = getting support. Not sure about making this one a Tech. It supports intellect as well as Yellow does I suppose, at least for now. Might change it back. The name's part of the catch phrase, but I don't think it really works. I'm also thinking of pumping it up to a 7, but that might make it priced at a 9, which I don't want.


Wrapping up, yeah, this Beast is more about his diplomacy translating into recruitment, but he does support other X-Men, and they gain support from him. He does deal some indirect damage though.

Any and all support is welcome, and please help me find some better names, or heck, even a new build entirely. There hasn't been a hero that focuses mostly on recruit, so I thought it would be a nice opportunity.
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Darth Ed
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Poor Beast... The only original X-Man not to be represented in the game. And he's an Avenger, too! Or at least he was back in the '80s. I think he's just in the reserves now, although I'm not sure where things stand after A vs. X. Anyway, he's certainly deserving. It might be interesting to add some Avengers-related effects though.
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Atnier Rodriguez
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Beast should be the X-Men's answer for Tech, with a smidge of fighting power...

I think you gotta make space for a Tech or two.

He's the one they usually go to when they need to figure out a cure, antidote, specialized weaponry, etc.

Sure, they have Dr. Nemesis or whatever his face is and a couple of others. But Beast was the resident's scientist or at least one of the more prominent ones.

Aside from that, I like the idea of calm (recruit) vs bestial brawn (my stars and garters!). That's what he's all about anyway. Looks like a beast, but smarter than most of us. He should have rough power with acrobatics mixed, so instinct with strength trigger or vice-versa.

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Darth Ed
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okami31 wrote:
I think you gotta make space for a Tech or two.

He's the one they usually go to when they need to figure out a cure, antidote, specialized weaponry, etc.

Yes, I completely agree.
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Atnier Rodriguez
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DarthEd wrote:
Poor Beast... The only original X-Man not to be represented in the game. And he's an Avenger, too! Or at least he was back in the '80s. I think he's just in the reserves now, although I'm not sure where things stand after A vs. X. Anyway, he's certainly deserving. It might interesting to add some Avengers-related effects though.


Adam could make two versions of him...the Avengers version and the X-Men version.

But I can't really tell you how he functioned within the Avengers. Was he one of the brawlers? was he one of the tacticians? one of the scientists? I started reading comics in the 2000s, so I don't know the early team dynamics. Why would you need Beast when you had Cap, Iron Man, and Pym?

Maybe he'll just trigger off Avenger keywords.

That's how I'd make Pym and Wasp anyway. Very team-focused.
 
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Adam Rimgar
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I never said it was perfect. My issue is that I have several in-game effects figured out, but don't know how they translate to actions or inventions "in-universe" if that makes any sense.

By all means give ideas.

As for Tech, I completely agree, X-men doesn't have any black and it makes some schemes and such a pain.

The way it's built currently however, it's all about the intellect itself rather than the inventions, and as far as a cure (wound KO) goes, I don't know where it would go or how to implement it. I have little

Maybe a second version would be the techie, but right now I can't figure out where to put it.

But I get you have some better ideas then I do, and I wouldn't mind hearing every one of them. P.S. Sorry for borrowing your format wholesale Okami. But it is a very nice setup.

Edit: Well, the only ones I might be able to make Tech related are the Rare and the second common, at least with the current effects. This would be a much easier process if I had names to go with it.
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Darth Ed
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okami31 wrote:
But I can't really tell you how he functioned within the Avengers. Was he one of the brawlers? was he one of the tacticians? one of the scientists? I started reading comics in the 2000s, so I don't know the early team dynamics. Why would you need Beast when you had Cap, Iron Man, and Pym?

Pym wasn't around in those days, I think, so he was the resident scientist, and his acrobatics and beast-level strength made me a tough combatant. He'd usually outsmart his opponents though, I think. I remember him flying the quinjet a lot. Captain America was the leader of the Avengers back then, as I recall, but he relied on Beast a lot for coming up with ideas and strategies. Beast certainly wasn't an top-tier heavy-hitter like Iron Man and Thor, but they weren't usually around in those days.

scifi.stackexchange.com wrote:
Beast, one of the original X-Men, joined the Avengers in Avengers #137 (July 1975), which is around the time that the second generation of X-Men debuted, which excluded original X-Men Beast, Iceman and Angel. He stayed with the team until issue #211 (September 1981), leaving them to join the Defenders (1985) and X-Factor (1986).
...
Beast then joined the Secret Avengers (July 2010), where he is still a regular member. And as a result of the recent Schism storyline, where a larger faction of X-Men led by Wolverine similarly disagreed with Cyclops methods and split off to form a school in Westchester, Beast has returned to the X-Men in the comic Wolverine and the X-Men (December 2011).

Yikes! It was more like the late '70s through 1981 that he was with the Avengers. I'm so old....

Wikipedia wrote:
During the Avengers vs. X-Men miniseries, Beast sides with the Avengers to investigate and stop the Phoenix Force's return to Earth.[volume & issue needed] Hank joins the team of Avengers sent to halt the Phoenix Force's return to Earth, but later temporarily 'resigns' from the Avengers in protest against their efforts to stop the 'Phoenix Five'- the five X-Men who have received the power of the Phoenix Force - as their actions appear to initially be benevolent. He returns to aid the Avengers when Cyclops and Emma Frost begin to be corrupted by the Phoenix's power.
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Darth Ed
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jynx KB wrote:
Well, the only ones I might be able to make Tech related are the Rare and the second common, at least with the current effects.

Yes, I was just about to post that very suggestion when I saw your edit.
 
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Adam Rimgar
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OK, for now, the Rare and the first Common are tech related. The second common kind of has to stay yellow, as it's more about the civil approach giving way to bestial necessity. Doesn't make Dr. Doom or the Legacy Virus much easier lol, but it's a start.

Edit: Cards are at least named now, Except for the uncommon. Can't find that sweet spot to describe what I want.
 
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Atnier Rodriguez
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Ah! Thanks for the compliments! And feel free to borrow my format, ideas, etc.

I'll try later to see if I can bring anything worthwhile to this project, but you seem to be in a good path.

@Darth

If you got time to post here, allay my Dr. Strange misery!

yuk

Just kidding!

 
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Adam Rimgar
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Last Refuge's balancing issue. Do I increase Fight to 3, Reduce the Cost to 3, both, or neither?

Edit: I increased the Fight to 3, enough to take down a henchmen, and reduced the price to 3. You can't just discard cards on a whim, and otherwise it's just a Maria Hill, so I don't think it's too imbalanced. Most descriptions are now cleaned up a little.
 
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Atnier Rodriguez
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My view on Beast favors the theme over the mechanics, in an attempt to make the character more justice, at least from what's more readily known of him.

What should his cards include? (I'll repeat previous points for the sake of grouping them together)


- Tech...he's the X-Men's scientist but as a biochemist he's more doctor than crazy inventor, so he's not Forge or Iron Man, but can pull a breakthrough here and there.

- Wounds management...he's very closely tied to anything involving the mutant gene, especially the Legacy Virus...he should be an automatic recruit to handle any wounds-heavy scheme...if you don't want him to feel like a doctor, then tie his actions to X-Men triggers...oh, and his removal of wounds should be an optional or forced global, like the medic bystander. He should help other players with their wounds too, and might not even need to have them reveal an X-Men Hero, because his good nature compels him to help even the enemy (he's even worked with the Dark Beast and other villains if the cause is good in itself...of course, that only works to a certain point, then is fisticuffs all over again).

- Diplomacy over Ferocity...this is the aspect you're focusing on...he was the one that kept Cyclops in check until he couldn't do so anymore. He's calm and collected, not only because he is very smart, but also because he constantly fears that the bestial side of his would sometime claim his being whole. Gameplay-wise, this could be shown with a Thor-like conversion of high-recruit-value now means attack value or something similar.

- Strength attack card with trigger(s)...He should have a Strength card. I can justify instinct, but he can lift up to 10 tons, able to twist gym equipment with his bare, furry hands. But his attack style heavily incorporates acrobatics unless he is so angry he enters his very own "berserker" mode, where he's more beast than man. But that's such a feared concept of his and a rare feature in his comic appearances that it shouldn't necessarily be incorporated. However, he could have an instinct trigger or even a critical that favors both instinct and strength, or even favors two things that are not strength, as long as is not Tech. BAsically, he's the better fighter when he's not brawling but fighting smart.

- He's always been insecure and conflicted about his mutation. That also plays with his Attack vs Recruit. Maybe his Rare should be the crowning of his wits winning the battle against his animal atavism. Once again, I recall Thor. If he has more Recruit than Attack, he should get more Attack than if he had only Attack. I don't think you should punish him for having more Attack, just reward him for controlling his impulses.

- He's very X-Men. A classic, original member. X-Men triggers should not only be welcome but almost demanded. At least once somewhere in his cards.



 
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Adam Rimgar
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Hmm. All excellent points. The one thing I don't have anything for is wounds. You're right though, the word Doctor is in his freaking name, how could I overlook it?!!!

I guess I was focusing too much on the ambassador role.

The commons right now I like, though one could be switched around to Uncommon I suppose.

A double trigger Rare that brings out Berserker mode? I like it, but don't know what effects to use.

Brainstorming here. How about a card that allows all players to discard Wounds from their hands and draw that many cards?

Okami I couldn't be more grateful, but where I am right now, most of the ideas are at least moderately fleshed out. Any big changes are going to require specific suggestions rather than blankets. Your advice is great, my brain just thinks differently I guess, game mechanics into character instead of the other way around.

Let me sleep on it. Thanks again, and let me know if anything else comes to mind.
 
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Atnier Rodriguez
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With that said, let's go over the cards (REITERATION- You should do what you want to do and the cards you want to play with...I'm just showing my POV in accordance with my theme-heavy style):

SECURITY

I like it. You've presented your case well. I see X-Men trigger, high recruiting power. This card could mean he's piloting the jets, handling the Danger Room to hone teammates' skills, getting gays married, etc.

Possible alternate names: "Eloquent Diplomacy" "Mind Over Beast" "Intellectual Might" "Wisdom and Intellect"

LAST REFUGE

I didn't know that it was a common saying of his. It's basically a "When Everything Else Fails".

I'm not completely sold on the discard protection. You're obviously tying it to the common and Angel, Cyclops, etc.

But then again, I can see the cool this-card-is-a-recruit-card-but-wait-it's-not...

But I think I want a bit more of it to mean that you either didn't have enough recruit, or you must sacrifice recruit for attack. I guess cuz you can still get the recruit and the attack value comboing with the other common, it would be like having your cake and eating it, rather than damn it, I couldn't get the cake peacefully, now it's a pie fight! (I sound crazy at times, yes.) Like:
"Discard this card to get + Attack"
"Discard a card with a Recruit icon to get + Attack"


UNCOMMON

I don't like this card. I get that you are trying to show his ability to fight several opponents at a time and distract them enough for Cykes to blast them or Psylocke to psy-knife them or Colossus to bowl them over like pins with a hurled rock/car/cow, but according to the game, the spaces in the city are far apart. Adjacent villains are not next to each other in a fight. One is in the Sewer and one is in the Bank. On is in the Bank and one is atop a roof. One is in the streets and the next one is taunting Namor at the bridge. You see what I'm saying.

I'd rather have the critical I mentioned in my earlier rambling.

Strength card that triggers off instinct. Hell, you can make it a team + color trigger which hasn't been done yet.

(X-Men, Instinct): Kablam!

or instinct x2, or instinct + strength

or Thor: If you made X or more Recruit this turn, you get Kablam! Pow!

RARE
Oh, my stars and garters!

The whole quote should be the title. Corny? Antiquated? Maybe, but a classic just like Imperious Rex or Clobberin' Time or Do you smell what the Rock is cookin' (I'm still waiting for his cooking show in Food Network)...

I'm not feeling the self-bystander combo. Leave the helpless to Jean!

Beast should be providing tactical intel, tech savvy and mighty paws all at once.

Thor's recruit boost for the rare?

"If you made X or more Recruit this turn, you get X Attack"

(it combos with Emma's Rare!)

or his other one

"You may use Recruit as Attack this turn."

or:

"You may use Recruit as Attack to defeat one Villain or Mastermind this turn"

or

"If after playing six or more cards, you have more Recruit than Attack, get + Attack"

or

(X-Men, X-Men) or (Instinct, Tech) or (Instinct, Tech, Strength) Get +8 Recruit and automatically defeat a Villain

whew...well, you get the drill...

 
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jynx KB wrote:
Hmm. All excellent points. The one thing I don't have anything for is wounds. You're right though, the word Doctor is in his freaking name, how could I overlook it?!!!

I guess I was focusing too much on the ambassador role.

The commons right now I like, though one could be switched around to Uncommon I suppose.

A double trigger Rare that brings out Berserker mode? I like it, but don't know what effects to use.

Brainstorming here. How about a card that allows all players to discard Wounds from their hands and draw that many cards?

Okami I couldn't be more grateful, but where I am right now, most of the ideas are at least moderately fleshed out. Any big changes are going to require specific suggestions rather than blankets. Your advice is great, my brain just thinks differently I guess, game mechanics into character instead of the other way around.

Let me sleep on it. Thanks again, and let me know if anything else comes to mind.


What are you doing up so early?!

I should be the only one crazy enough to work on Legendary this damn early!

You're cramping whatever style I may or may not have!

Haha...

I'm glad of being of any sort of help...

 
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jynx KB wrote:
Hmm. All excellent points. The one thing I don't have anything for is wounds. You're right though, the word Doctor is in his freaking name, how could I overlook it?!!!

I guess I was focusing too much on the ambassador role.

The commons right now I like, though one could be switched around to Uncommon I suppose.

A double trigger Rare that brings out Berserker mode? I like it, but don't know what effects to use.

Brainstorming here. How about a card that allows all players to discard Wounds from their hands and draw that many cards?

Okami I couldn't be more grateful, but where I am right now, most of the ideas are at least moderately fleshed out. Any big changes are going to require specific suggestions rather than blankets. Your advice is great, my brain just thinks differently I guess, game mechanics into character instead of the other way around.

Let me sleep on it. Thanks again, and let me know if anything else comes to mind.


No, I don't want his Berserker mode. His schtick is that he's a Beast that has managed to not be a Beast, despite the genetic inclination and everybody else's perception.

That's his ultimate, most-cherished goal.

Oooh...a global in-your-face-wounds...you know, that might be too much...I'm fine with a triggered ko-a-wound-for-a-draw on a common or something like, because that's four commons, so four times the effect. No need to group all effects in one card if it's gonna mess up the overall architecture of the set.

And don't worry. If you don't want to break the mold, let's just make an alternate Beast! I'm fine with having multiple iterations if one cannot hold them all. Look how many Wolverines I made!
 
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Adam Rimgar
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Well put, well argued, I applaud you sir. You even came up with better names than I did (lol)

Security: Other then a potential name change. "Mind over Beast" I actually prefer, so other than the change I'm gonna keep that as is. That being said, it kind of turns the card back into a yellow.

Last Refuge: That's being changed to "When All Else Fails" in the final cut. The full quote was "Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent" Yeah, I fully admit I'm playing mechanics over character on this one, but I like the way it plays, so the first two cards I want to keep in some way shape or form. I'm actually thinking of changing this one to his Uncommon and bumping up the numbers. This could also be either a yellow or a green, so I need to make a final decision on that.

The uncommon: Now that I see your arguments, I'm definitely changing this one. It was a cool experimental idea, but it's something I was never completely sold on. The issue is I have 2 ideas, a meat and potatoes Fight card with a trigger, possibly reducing villains in the city by one. (which admittedly could be put into the rare) or a "every player may discard all wounds in their hand to draw that many cards" It doesn't KO the wounds, which makes it more balanced I suppose, and it could be another Black into the X-men.

Oh my Stars and Garters!: You're right, full name is best here. This concept was silly, but it made thematic sense at the time, and allowed the reuse of Bystander effects. I was actually thinking of a reverse Thor effect, Turning Fight power into recruit, but even as I type this, I know it's more for the reason the mechanic isn't represented than to be true to the character. How about getting X Fight for each Hero you Recruit this turn? Still brainstorming on this one, but your help has been invaluable.
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jynx KB wrote:
Well put, well argued, I applaud you sir. You even came up with better names than I did (lol)

Security: Other then a potential name change. "Mind over Beast" I actually prefer, so other than the change I'm gonna keep that as is. That being said, it kind of turns the card back into a yellow.

Last Refuge: That's being changed to "When All Else Fails" in the final cut. The full quote was "Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent" Yeah, I fully admit I'm playing mechanics over character on this one, but I like the way it plays, so the first two cards I want to keep in some way shape or form. I'm actually thinking of changing this one to his Uncommon and bumping up the numbers. This could also be either a yellow or a green, so I need to make a final decision on that.

The uncommon: Now that I see your arguments, I'm definitely changing this one. It was a cool experimental idea, but it's something I was never completely sold on. The issue is I have 2 ideas, a meat and potatoes Fight card with a trigger, possibly reducing villains in the city by one. (which admittedly could be put into the rare) or a "every player may discard all wounds in their hand to draw that many cards" It doesn't KO the wounds, which makes it more balanced I suppose, and it could be another Black into the X-men.

Oh my Stars and Garters!: You're right, full name is best here. This concept was silly, but it made thematic sense at the time, and allowed the reuse of Bystander effects. I was actually thinking of a reverse Thor effect, Turning Fight power into recruit, but even as I type this, I know it's more for the reason the mechanic isn't represented than to be true to the character. How about getting X Fight for each Hero you Recruit this turn? Still brainstorming on this one, but your help has been invaluable.


Glad to be of help!

Newest idea that came to my head for healing wounds...how about KO'ing them for each Tech card you've played? It's not like Beast can heal them all without high-tech lab gear...just an extra thought...
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Excellent! Although it does make it difficult to play with other X-men, as they are fairly light on tech. I hate having 5 ideas or more with only 4 cards to work with lol.
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Yep, X-Men's are really low on Tech, and X-Force drafted Bishop and Forge...haha...it was the time for Beast to shine and he was utterly ignored...he's been in two movies by two different actors! Take that Iron Fist!
 
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OK, Beast 2.0 here.

Beast

Affiliation: X-Men

Commons

“Mind Over Beast”

Rarity - Common
Hero Class - Instinct
Cost - 5
Attack – 0
Recruitment – 3+
Effect:
(X-Men): Discard a card, +2 Recruit

“When All Else Fails”

Rarity - Common
Hero Class - Strength
Cost - 3
Attack – 0
Recruitment – 2
Effect: When this card is discarded due to the effect of another card, gain 3 Fight

Explanation: These work well together, and are balanced just fine. I really wanted to keep the first common a tech, but it felt more like a philosophy than technology.

Uncommon

“Genetic Research”

Rarity - Uncommon
Hero Class - Tech
Cost - 4
Attack – 2
Recruitment – 0
Effect: You may KO any number of Wounds from your hand. If you do, Draw that many cards

(Tech) Other players may use this same effect.

Explanation: The tricky part of this one is it only works on wounds from the hand, and it doesn't really draw extra so much as clean those cards out. It is potential healing on a far larger scale than most cards though.

Time will tell if it's unbalanced, or needs to be stronger or higher priced. I could even remove the Fight entirely and bring the cost really low. I'm still playing with numbers. It was mostly based on Gambit's uncommon.

I could even try basing or increase Fight based on the number of Wounds Koed, but that's a lot of effects running around.

Short version, need more council on this.

Rare

"Free the Beast"

Rarity - Rare
Hero Class - Strength
Cost - 7
Attack – 5+
Recruitment – 0
Effect: Gain Recruit equal to the Victory Points of defeated enemies this turn.

(Instinct, Tech) +4 Fight


Finally finding a balance I like here. I miss the acrobatics piece, but I suppose it can be worked into the artwork of When All Else Fails.

I think any changes from here are going to be far smaller, but I'd still like input before finalizing.

Thanks to everyone so far.
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okami31 wrote:
Newest idea that came to my head for healing wounds...how about KO'ing them for each Tech card you've played? It's not like Beast can heal them all without high-tech lab gear...just an extra thought...

I love this idea!
 
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jynx KB wrote:
I hate having 5 ideas or more with only 4 cards to work with lol.

Haha! Yeah, I'm having the same problem with designing Dr. Strange!

Beast 2.0 looks great!
 
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Adam Rimgar
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Beast 2.0 looks great!


Thanks. The uncommon is still giving me the biggest trouble. (big surprise) But, the Rare is where I think I want it to be.

Most of the things I need to settle on is numbers and colors. What the costs are, and what amounts of Fight ect.

Shame I don't have photoshop, or I'd start working on copies of these.
 
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Atnier Rodriguez
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jynx KB wrote:
Quote:
Beast 2.0 looks great!


Thanks. The uncommon is still giving me the biggest trouble. (big surprise) But, the Rare is where I think I want it to be.

Most of the things I need to settle on is numbers and colors. What the costs are, and what amounts of Fight ect.

Shame I don't have photoshop, or I'd start working on copies of these.


I think the Rare has too much attack. Beast shouldn't outdo Hulk in that department,even with critical.
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