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Subject: soooo on the fence on this one rss

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Travis R. Chance
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I have had my eye on this all week, watching the review vids up and reading what source material I can find. Part of me thinks this looks cool and worthy of backing. But then another part thinks it's just the appeal of the art and concept, which from a few reviews has some disconnect issues and somewhat devolving into a dice fest of pass/fail.

So, as we approach the 11th hour, I am looking for a consensus here: is this game worthy of my $40 (loaded question:BOOM!). Do forgive my brevity.

 
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Dustin Crenshaw
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do the stretch goals come in the retail version?
 
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From the main kickstarter page:
All stretch goal content is exclusive to Kickstarter and will NOT be available at retail.
(Just above the stretch goal picture)

Currently this project is looking worth it to me. The value at the base pledge level is really good. I am in for the $100 level though as the 4 adventure packs won't be available later and I value the gameplay variety myself.
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Jon Landers
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Compared to a lot of other fantasy games, I think Fallen is unique in that it's two-player. I have a bunch of friends who I can play this with when they stay at mine or I stay at theirs.

Really, that's why I'm getting it. Because when I hang out with my friends, it's usually a one-on-one hang out session.
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Travis R. Chance
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I don't doubt the value of the bits in the box; my worry is about game play. All the info I have seen from Watchtower focuses on thematic elements and makes statements about similarities to MtG and other complex card games, but what I have gathered from reviews is the game boils down to dice optimization, but not in as clever a way as a game say like Troyes or Alien Frontiers. Another concern is that it is just 2 players. I have a very large gaming group and this is def not something my wife would play.

Sorry to fidget in a public forum as such. I just don't know what to do. In terms of the adventure packs, there is basically no info on these so I can't discern if they're worth $15. Component wise, they appear not to be.
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No harm in voicing your own opinion ;-)
I can't comment on the dice optimization front too much, but on the adventure pack side of things, it's largely a one time shot. We are buying them blind, but after this they won't be available - so it's a bit of a gamble.
Personally I am going for it, but I am a bit of a completionist.
 
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Marty McFly
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Action Phase wrote:
I don't doubt the value of the bits in the box; my worry is about game play. All the info I have seen from Watchtower focuses on thematic elements and makes statements about similarities to MtG and other complex card games, but what I have gathered from reviews is the game boils down to dice optimization, but not in as clever a way as a game say like Troyes or Alien Frontiers. Another concern is that it is just 2 players. I have a very large gaming group and this is def not something my wife would play.

Sorry to fidget in a public forum as such. I just don't know what to do. In terms of the adventure packs, there is basically no info on these so I can't discern if they're worth $15. Component wise, they appear not to be.

I agree with everything you've said. I don't mind a good dice optimization game, but I do fear that this game will feel the same after a few plays. The stories are different, but I'm not sure a few paragraphs mean all that much to me if game play always feels the same. For the record, I am backing it. But I'm not getting any Adventure Packs because I'm not convinced they add enough to the game. (Plus, with the current stretch goals, we're getting a few extra Adventure Packs for free, so why spend more if I'm not sure?)
 
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Dustin Crenshaw
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Will the playmats be sold after kickstarter?
 
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Jason Behnke
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martidem wrote:
Action Phase wrote:
I don't doubt the value of the bits in the box; my worry is about game play. All the info I have seen from Watchtower focuses on thematic elements and makes statements about similarities to MtG and other complex card games, but what I have gathered from reviews is the game boils down to dice optimization, but not in as clever a way as a game say like Troyes or Alien Frontiers. Another concern is that it is just 2 players. I have a very large gaming group and this is def not something my wife would play.

Sorry to fidget in a public forum as such. I just don't know what to do. In terms of the adventure packs, there is basically no info on these so I can't discern if they're worth $15. Component wise, they appear not to be.

I agree with everything you've said. I don't mind a good dice optimization game, but I do fear that this game will feel the same after a few plays. The stories are different, but I'm not sure a few paragraphs mean all that much to me if game play always feels the same. For the record, I am backing it. But I'm not getting any Adventure Packs because I'm not convinced they add enough to the game. (Plus, with the current stretch goals, we're getting a few extra Adventure Packs for free, so why spend more if I'm not sure?)


So this is just coming from me, having played it once. I really think we all come with different postures and expectations with games based on what we've played before and what we enjoy, and what works for me might not work for you, so not sure if I can be helpful or not. But hopefully this is helpful to some extent.

I wanted to share with you a detailed slice of my experience playing the game that hopefully sheds some light on things. I'm just pulling from my brain right now, so it might wander a bit.

What I found was this: You are correct in that you're managing resources that affect the dice you're rolling in order to defeat your opponent's dice... but the dice are not where the sweet sauce is. The dice sit at the very end of the equation. They are an end to a means, a final outcome. It's everything behind the dice and around the dice that affect things that makes each game unique and interesting. Yes, everything does boil down to a comparison of dice at the end. But how you manipulate things in order to achieve desired results with the dice is, in my mind and from my own experience, pretty deep, and made the game fun and addictive.

But first the dice themselves... you need to roll Swords, as many as you can. Very simple on paper. But some swords have other symbols on them... some swords cause actual wounds to the hero or creatures directly. Others will have another symbol that allows for a recharge to something called Ultimate. So this changes things up a little bit because these other symbols will affect things that are happening around the dice, and not the dice specifically. The Win or Loss of a Challenge is contingent on who has more swords... but it might not actually be in your interest to win a particular Challenge. Other things might be more important to you at that stage of the game, and you might be more focused on those things than just generating as many swords as possible. And your objective might be a lot smarter on various levels than just scoring as many swords as possible and winning a Challenge.

In fact, I can almost guarantee you that if you just play the game intent on rolling swords and winning every Challenge, you'll lose the endgame to a smarter or more experienced player. The comparison is like playing a videogame against a button-masher who knows little about the tactical depth and finesse of the game.

From the perspective of the Hero: You always start with 2 white dice. That's your default. Then you add a die based on the skill you're using, but that's dictated by the kind of challenge it is, and the challenge is dictated by the choice you made in the storycard. Hopefully it's a challenge that caters to your hero's abilities. That won't always be the case.

You can spend Fortune tokens to add blue dice, but they don't auto-replenish until end of storycard. Fortune is kinda the game's "currency" and you can do more with Fortune than just buy dice. It's good to be careful with how you manage Fortune.

The Hero has something called Ultimate which is their unique special ability but it recharges slowly, and so you have to manage getting charges back into your Ultimate so you can use it again. You have gear that might help out with dice but only within the conditions that are conducive to that piece of gear... for example the torch gets better as the Shadow Track leans more into the dark, but things are overall tougher for your hero in the dark. If you have armor, you can take wounds until it's breached, then you get a critical wound, and these wounds will affect many things across the whole game, for example having to discard a Power Card in order to use Ultimate. You can still do things, but critical wounds are pretty costly on the hero. When I played, my sorceress had 3 critical wounds by endgame, requiring me to change how I was doing things pretty extensively, and this made things especially hairy.

Power Cards, this is your hand, and you can use these to also help influence the dice. But there are a lot more cards than just "add a die". Things are a lot more interesting than that. I wish I could remember a few examples but I can't right now. I recall drawing each Power Card and finding interesting uses for each one.

Treasure cards are powerful. One comes to mind is the mana ring... powercards are cheaper while wearing the ring, and when you spend a powercard, instead of discarding it, you put it under the manaring. Once a certain number of cards are in the ring, you can choose to burn the ring and all powercards that are under it to gain a new powercard (or something like that). So you either save the ring and enjoy the discounts or you burn it as an emergency last-ditch powercard. It's a great item and when I played as the Sorceress, I was lucky to draw it.

All treasure cards and equipment cards have interesting mechanics like this that affect things that span across the game and around the dice, and not necessarily the dice themselves. Again, end of the day, score more swords than your opponent, but a lot of other things are going on, like wounding creatures or the hero. You might sacrifice winning a challenge in order to kill a powerful creature, which earns you XP, which you use to level your character.

When your hero levels up, they gain substantial bonuses to their abilities and dice management. You might gain more access to the red die (which is the best die), or you might roll more blues. But again, it's more than the dice. When a hero levels, there are three tracks they can choose to go down, and you can mix it up. I first went to Battle Caster but then instead of going deeper vertically through BC, I went wide and put points into Channeler. Channeler has an interesting mechanic that allows you to place tokens on her, and these tokens can be spent to gain a single blue die. It sounds like Fortune but they lack all of the other variables that can be used with Fortune. So with one slot in BC and going the rest of the way with Channeler, my Sorceress was becoming pretty powerful, but in a pretty unique way than, say, if I went all BC. Each hero of the same character will behave differently depending on how you level them up.

So anyway, all three tracks for the Sorcerer were interesting in their own unique ways and abilities. With Channeler maxed out (and wearing the mana ring), the Sorceress became an ocean of stored magic who could access and spend powercards easily and efficiently. She also could use her Fortune for other things beyond just buying blue dice because of her Channeling.

Shadowtrack... this is a high-level game mechanic that literally controls the temperature of the game. If it's in the dark, things are easier for the DL and harder for the Hero... and vice versa. You can affect and manipulate the Shadow Track in a number of different ways, and many abilities, powers, equipment, treasure, creatures, etc are affected by where the Shadowtrack is. The torch is a small example of this. I thought the Shadow Track was a brilliant game mechanic... it's your "12th player" (if you're into football)... either your friend or enemy. You absolutely need to manage the shadowtrack and keep it in your favor or else things can go very pear-shaped very quickly.

Honestly, I can go on and on and on... but ultimately what I wanted to convey is that this game is, yes, about the outcome of dice being rolled. But there are a ton of mechanics happening in the game around and behind the dice that make this game, for me, interesting and replayable on a tactical level. Just about every Challenge I faced, I found several different approaches that I had to figure out and decide on... and then go with and hope for the best. Luck does play a role with the dice obviously, but it's fun because the dice aren't the entire game... or rather, the entire game isn't just a dice war where you just roll and cross your fingers. The game rewards you for being smart, and it's fulfilling to pull a win out of your butt when at first it looked entirely futile. I had several of those happen during my game, and it's thanks to the core game play that surrounds the rolling of dice.

Timing is also a huge component to the game play... when do you use certain things and risk not having access to them later. Is there a way to devise a strategy that causes a certain thing to become more economically viable, more efficient, so that you can use it with less risk? Shadowtrack will profoundly affect this. Do you nibble away at your opponent, or do you build up and even take losses on challenges in order to blow everything at the end and hopefully pull out the win? I guarantee you that if you even played the same storycard multiple times, you will have different scenarios, different tactics... there will be different creatures, different treasures, and different things happening on the table that make compare/contrast interesting with the previous game.

I really, honestly, genuinely hope this was helpful, and apologize if this rambled around a bit.
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Marty McFly
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jbehnke wrote:
I really, honestly, genuinely hope this was helpful, and apologize if this rambled around a bit.

Any detailed information is very helpful. Many of the Watchtower Games updates on KS are more about artwork and less about game mechanics and nuances and the differences/strengths/weaknesses of characters and strategies. So, thank you very much!
 
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Luke Butler
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martidem wrote:
jbehnke wrote:
I really, honestly, genuinely hope this was helpful, and apologize if this rambled around a bit.

Any detailed information is very helpful. Many of the Watchtower Games updates on KS are more about artwork and less about game mechanics and nuances and the differences/strengths/weaknesses of characters and strategies. So, thank you very much!


The latest update details the creatures and items in the 4 adventure packs. They all have unique abilities and uses. Very cool! Can't wait to get a hold of my own copy of Fallen.
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Jason Behnke
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Xavarir wrote:
martidem wrote:
jbehnke wrote:
I really, honestly, genuinely hope this was helpful, and apologize if this rambled around a bit.

Any detailed information is very helpful. Many of the Watchtower Games updates on KS are more about artwork and less about game mechanics and nuances and the differences/strengths/weaknesses of characters and strategies. So, thank you very much!


The latest update details the creatures and items in the 4 adventure packs. They all have unique abilities and uses. Very cool! Can't wait to get a hold of my own copy of Fallen.


Wow, yeah very cool indeed. Some of those creature abilities are... shudder... holy crap did you see "Bore Worm"? It's ability is tied directly to the storycard.

"Bore Worm (A/S) - The challenge difficulty is now hard. No matter what the hero is trying to do, having an enormous worm burrowing through the earth is going to make things really hard. Look ahead on the Story card and anticipate an easy challenge coming up. Announce to the hero that he's made a good choice to "Fallback and Rest" and that it's an easy (S) challenge...and then activate the Bore Worm and ruin his day."
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Rya Rich
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Action Phase wrote:
I have had my eye on this all week, watching the review vids up and reading what source material I can find. Part of me thinks this looks cool and worthy of backing. But then another part thinks it's just the appeal of the art and concept, which from a few reviews has some disconnect issues and somewhat devolving into a dice fest of pass/fail.

So, as we approach the 11th hour, I am looking for a consensus here: is this game worthy of my $40 (loaded question:BOOM!). Do forgive my brevity.



Buy in you!
 
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Dustin Crenshaw
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I would like to know about the playmats before I consider jumping in
 
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Steve Kozlowski
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SeerMagic wrote:
I would like to know about the playmats before I consider jumping in


They've said that the playmats will be available after the Kickstarter as they are not exculsive.
 
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Travis R. Chance
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martidem wrote:
jbehnke wrote:
I really, honestly, genuinely hope this was helpful, and apologize if this rambled around a bit.

Any detailed information is very helpful. Many of the Watchtower Games updates on KS are more about artwork and less about game mechanics and nuances and the differences/strengths/weaknesses of characters and strategies. So, thank you very much!


Bingo! This is what is irritating me. It's clear they don't have some of these Adventure packs and additional characters hammered out yet, and that is okay, but it almost feels intentionally vague from these guys, which is why I have been in knots trying to figure out if this is worth backing.

I appreciate the detailed info, btw, Jason!
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Travis R. Chance
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Fuck it. BACK'D!
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Action Phase wrote:
martidem wrote:
jbehnke wrote:
I really, honestly, genuinely hope this was helpful, and apologize if this rambled around a bit.

Any detailed information is very helpful. Many of the Watchtower Games updates on KS are more about artwork and less about game mechanics and nuances and the differences/strengths/weaknesses of characters and strategies. So, thank you very much!


Bingo! This is what is irritating me. It's clear they don't have some of these Adventure packs and additional characters hammered out yet, and that is okay, but it almost feels intentionally vague from these guys, which is why I have been in knots trying to figure out if this is worth backing.

I appreciate the detailed info, btw, Jason!


Not sure about this vagueness you have referred to. They have details up about several characters, a dungeon lord and some other items. Guess my experience has been different. I feel Watchtower has done a pretty good job and communicating about the game. Could they have done more? Sure, almost every KS I have backed has had something that I wished the company had talked more about.
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I was looking forward to backing this months before the Kickstarter kicked off, but I ultimately decided not to. It was just too expensive for me. It felt like I needed to pledge $100 (to get all the Adventure Packs) if I was going to pledge at all. (I'm a completionist.) If it had been half that price, I would have backed it for sure.

Meanwhile, I saw the announcements for Pathfinder Adventure Card Game, and I think that game will scratch the itch that Fallen would have for me, and in some ways better. I like that it supports more than 2 players and is cooperative, as opposed to Fallen's one-on-one gameplay. And, yeah, I realize that with all the planned expansions for Pathfinder Adventure Card Game, it will probably cost me about $100, maybe more, but I think I'll get more value out of it in the long run than I would with Fallen since I can play it with more than 2 players.

To those of you who Kickstarted Fallen, I salute you, and I hope you enjoy the game. Maybe I'll pick it up someday at retail.
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Dustin Crenshaw
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Koz1120 wrote:
SeerMagic wrote:
I would like to know about the playmats before I consider jumping in


They've said that the playmats will be available after the Kickstarter as they are not exculsive.


thanks for the reply. very close to pulling the trigger on this one.
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I can't decide. I backed it and then upped my backer amount to include all 4 card packs, then looked at it some more and dropped back out. I am totally on the fence and thinking about this one.

Right now I am 55/45 in favor of saving my money.

While the art does look great, the flavor of this makes me feel like a choose-your-own adventure story, that is great a few times and then you are tired of it and know pretty much where it is going.

I watched the video, but I am still unsure of the feel of the actual gameplay and whether there is any meat on this bone ...

Another last minute decision, but at the moment I am still leaning towards no.

I think they might have had me if they had added a few more Kickstarter reward levels for reaching 90, 100k etc. Not sure why they stopped - I guess at a certain point its all profit, but additional rewards seem to usually snowball into additional sales and additional profits.

hmmmmm.....

Also not excited about the 2 player nature since I rarely get to play 2 player games and the future plans for 4 player may or may not work out well.

I think the 2 playerness of this is going to decide me against it in the end.
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glookose wrote:
Also not excited about the 2 player nature since I rarely get to play 2 player games and the future plans for 4 player may or may not work out well.

I think the 2 playerness of this is going to decide me against it in the end.


I think you just answered your own question, if you don't like 2 player games then this is not the game for you. It's designed as a 1v1 dungeon adventure.

The $40 level comes with 79 story cards, each game uses 3 story cards so that's about 26 games using a new story card every game. Once you start mix and matching heroes, different skill tree choices, dungeon lords, and story cards, you'll have massive replayability.
 
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Dustin Crenshaw
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I ended up not backing. Just to concerned with the gameplay for me. But I do hope to try it when It comes out.
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Jack Stalica
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Somewhat curious - but utlimately worried about the basic combat mechanic and based on Nerdblogger's pre/review (http://boardgamegeek.com/thread/1008349/fallen-a-nerdblogger...) I'm totally out. You can read my comments there.
 
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I've backed at $40. I just can't legitimize spending $15 per adventure pack on an unplayed game.

The problem is that $15 is 37.5% of the base game cost. It's just too much. I understand why they priced them that way, and more power to them, but it's just a bit too much to gamble on.

If the game turns out to be spectacular, I'll kick myself, but honestly, the chances of that are fairly slim. I only convinced myself to back because the base game is getting so much kickstarter exclusive content, and seems like a good deal purely from a component standpoint.

I'm curious if anyone thinks I'm nuts for not getting the exclusive adventure packs.
 
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