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Subject: Questions about drafting rss

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Steven Packard
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Say Car B is drafting behind Car A.

Car A Steps On It, rolls high, passes his engine check, and all's right with the world. Car B drafts along behind him.

1. Does Car B also need to do an engine check (i.e., is he considered to be Stepping On It also?); or is Car B sucked along by the draft without stressing his engine?

2. What if Car B is heavily damaged and can't voluntarily Step On It? Is he still able to draft Car A which IS Stepping On It?

3. At the end of Car B's movement, does B do a body check since he ends his move adjacent to Car A?

I assume the answers are:

1. No engine check (the draft is doing all the work);

2. Yes, a damaged Car B can still draft a car Stepping On It; and

3. Yes, Car B does a body check.

But I want to confirm with you guys to see if I'm thinking correctly.
 
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S J
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Yes, I agree with your answers for the first two questions.

For the third one I am not sure about the terms. Unfortunately I don't have the directions sitting right here in front of me to check with. I thought a body check is what you rolled when you have to brake hard. When you are adjacent to another car, that is when each car rolls a dice and if the dice results are the same number the cars bumped together. Maybe I am just confused about the terminlogy here. I do agree you would roll to see if the cars bump following a draft.

In the situation you described usually the strategy would be to try to "shake off" the drafting car. So the lead car would try to do their move such that the last movement would be a lane change. Then the drafting car which would stay in the second to last spot of the movement would not end up directly behind anymore and thus the drafting would be a one time deal. Also, although it depends on the dice and other positions out there, you can try to get the movement such that the drafting car ends up not only adjacent to your car, but other cars as well. If they have a lot of damage that might make them not take the drafting option, or it might end up giving them more damage.
 
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Steven Packard
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Thanks for the informative response, Starscream, plus the bonus strategy tips.

Yes, you interpreted my poorly worded third question correctly. I, too, didn't have the rules in front of me and I forgot the terminology. But it was the testing for bumping damage that I was talking about when you end a move adjacent to another car(s) and you each roll a die trying not to match anyone else's die.

I figured that that rule HAD to also be in place while drafting, but since I was asking about the other 2 situations, I might as well confirm the bumping die roll.

 
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Todd
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Interesting idea about shaking a drafting car. I don't agree though I am probably wrong. It seems to me the drafting car is following the lead car. If the lead car switches lanes on its last move (say from the middle lane to the outside lane) that the drafting car would simply end up behind it in the outside lane one spot back --and NOT in the middle lane of the same row as the lead car. This is what would happen in "real" racing. But am I wrong about this?

Another drafting question.

5 cars in a row. All drafting. But assume Lead car does not go first (based on turn order determined at beginning of game) on the turn. Say the 3rd car in the draft goes first each turn. Does that #3 car that gets to go first have to declare whether it is drafting behind the lead car BEFORE he knows what the lead car is going to do, or can he effectively wait and then say he is drafting if the lead car does something good for him, or say he is on his own if the lead car checks up or the like?
 
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Steven Packard
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Keep in mind that I'm new to the game and as such I'm sure I'm not the best one to answer this. But here's my take:


Quote:
It seems to me the drafting car is following the lead car. If the lead car switches lanes on its last move (say from the middle lane to the outside lane) that the drafting car would simply end up behind it in the outside lane one spot back --and NOT in the middle lane of the same row as the lead car. This is what would happen in "real" racing. But am I wrong about this?


Yes, I think you may be mistaken. First of all, I'm really not sure if this would happen in "real" racing, but it seems to me that if a car is drafting, the lead car MIGHT be able to try to shake the following car by trying to shift to the side enough in an attempt to put the drafting car in dirty air and break the draft. But maybe real life doesn't work this way.

In game terms, though, I think switching lanes is a viable strategy to break a draft. After all, in the rules it gives an example of doing exactly that when it describes drafting. Their example shows the drafting car winding up in a lane BESIDE and a little behind the lead car. The rules also state (according to my recollection) that in order to draft the trailing car has to be immediately behind the lead car. Therefore the car in this example will NOT be able to draft the same car on the next turn. (However maybe it would pick up on a different car and draft it the next turn.)


Quote:
5 cars in a row. All drafting. But assume Lead car does not go first (based on turn order determined at beginning of game) on the turn. Say the 3rd car in the draft goes first each turn. Does that #3 car that gets to go first have to declare whether it is drafting behind the lead car BEFORE he knows what the lead car is going to do, or can he effectively wait and then say he is drafting if the lead car does something good for him, or say he is on his own if the lead car checks up or the like?


Again referring to the rules on drafting, a car immediately behind another car can choose to draft it as soon as the lead car moves. If it drafts, it has 2 options:

1. It can be sucked forward one space. Then when it is this car's turn to go, it can move like normal. (In other words, it got one bonus space of movement due to drafting.)

2. It can follow the exact path of the lead car, ending in the next to the last space that the lead car occupied. If this is the choice that the drafting car takes, then it skips its next turn. As a reminder, the card for the drafting car is flipped upside down. When it is that car's turn, the card is simply flipped rightside up and is ready to go on its next turn.

So in your example, a car that moves first each turn that is in the middle of a drafting line of cars will likely already have it's card flipped over from the last drafting move. So when it's his turn, he merely flips his card over to be ready next time. Then, whenever the car that's 2nd in this drafting line moves, the 3rd-in-line car will either choose to draft (in which case, if he continues the string of drafting cars, he'll simply flip his card upside down again), or else make his independent move at the beginning of the next turn.

Sorry for being so verbose. I was trying to be clear as to what my thoughts are, which resulted in word-overload.
 
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Steven Packard
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I'm sorry -- I think I misread Fez's second point/question.

Quote:
5 cars in a row. All drafting. But assume Lead car does not go first (based on turn order determined at beginning of game) on the turn. Say the 3rd car in the draft goes first each turn. Does that #3 car that gets to go first have to declare whether it is drafting behind the lead car BEFORE he knows what the lead car is going to do, or can he effectively wait and then say he is drafting if the lead car does something good for him, or say he is on his own if the lead car checks up or the like?


I think your question is actually whether the drafting car has to decide to draft before or after he sees the results of the lead car's move.

My understanding is that the lead car moves, and THEN the trailing car decides whether to draft or not. If he doesn't draft, the trailing car moves whenever his turn next comes up. If he does draft, then he decides whether to do the "one space forward" draft, or do the "follow the leader and skip his next turn" draft.
 
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Mike Cook
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I must be confused also, how could that happen with the rules so clearly written.

Right now the way I play, and the way I interpret, is ONLY the car behind the ACTIVE car gets to draft. So if there are two cars behind the active car, only the one right behind dafts.

I interpret the rule as you CAN'T draft an inactive car.

Am I wrong?

 
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Steven Packard
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I sure wouldn't mind someone more experienced with Race Day to confirm my answers. Frankly, I'm 99+% positive that I'm correct with my interpretations of the rules being discussed here, but I can't say often enough that people should know that I'm NOT an expert on the game.

That said, it makes perfectly good sense to me that a long line of cars can draft each other. It's my understanding that that's how it happens in "real life" -- which of course is no guarantee that the rules reflect that. But in this case I believe that they do.

For example, say 5 cars are in line drafting each other. At some point the active car is the lead car (car #1). Car #1 moves, then Car #2 (which in all likelihood is NOT the car that's next in line to be active) chooses to draft, and follows the same path as Car #1. The card for Car #2 is now turned over as per the rules, and he sits out his normal turn when his car DOES become active. (And when it's Car #2's turn to become active, he simply flips his card over.)

So in effect, Car #2 has taken his turn -- but it's out of the normal turn order established at the beginning of the race.

SO ... Car #1 and Car #2 have moved, with Cars # 3-5 still in a drafting line. Regardless of which car is next to be active, the drafting still isn't resolved, because from Car #3's point of view, Car #2 is his lead car and he's drafting it. At the point that Car #2 finished moving, Car #3 has to immediately decide whether to draft or not. If he drafts, then as per the rules, he has to move right then to follow the exact path of his lead car (Car #2), then he flips his card over.

And now that Car #3 has moved, Car #4 has to immediately decide whether to draft or not, and the sequence above is repeated for each car that's in the drafting line.

In this example, Car #1 made a normal move, and Cars #2-5 each drafted the car in front of it, flipping over their cards afterward. That drafting is completed, and the next thing that happens is that the car next in line to be active after Car #1 takes its turn. If it's one of Car #2-5, that car simply flips its card over, ready for the following turn (or the next round of drafting). If it's any other car on the track, then it takes its turn as normal.
 
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S J
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FezAZ wrote:
Interesting idea about shaking a drafting car. I don't agree though I am probably wrong. It seems to me the drafting car is following the lead car. If the lead car switches lanes on its last move (say from the middle lane to the outside lane) that the drafting car would simply end up behind it in the outside lane one spot back --and NOT in the middle lane of the same row as the lead car. This is what would happen in "real" racing. But am I wrong about this?

Another drafting question.

5 cars in a row. All drafting. But assume Lead car does not go first (based on turn order determined at beginning of game) on the turn. Say the 3rd car in the draft goes first each turn. Does that #3 car that gets to go first have to declare whether it is drafting behind the lead car BEFORE he knows what the lead car is going to do, or can he effectively wait and then say he is drafting if the lead car does something good for him, or say he is on his own if the lead car checks up or the like?


Steven's answers are correct above. Just to further clarify.

Yes, in real Nascar racing the lead car tries to shake a car from drafting by changing lanes. Especially on the longer, faster race tracks near the end of the race it is common to see the leader zig zag on the straight aways to break the draft of someone close behind in second. They don't want to the second place car to draft right up behind them and get sling-shot out front going into the turn.

Back to this game, again I don't have the rules right here in front of me, but I am almost 100% sure it is stated that if a person chooses the full draft (skip their next turn) they must follow the EXACT path the front car took, and stop in the second to last movement spot. This space might be directly behind the front car, or it might be diagonally behind depending on the path the front car took.

For the other scenario you described where car #3 of a five car draft has his turn before the cars in front of him... Pretty much that car has no choice but to leave the draft. He has to take his turn right then, the rules do not allow you to skip your turn, or wait for the cars in front to move first. The drafting has to happen in turn order. The game doesn't have the concept of bump drafting like on some tracks in real racing. So you have to do your turn, go out of the draft line and pass or move along side the cars in front of you. The only legal way you could stay in the draft line is if you chose to "check up" and rolled a 1 or 2, and thus didn't move at all.

The other way to think about it from how the rules are written. You can't ever choose to draft when it is your turn. Drafting only happens on other cars' turns. In the situation you described if it is car #3's turn, they can't declare anything in regards to the draft. They have to declare what speed they are going, roll the dice and make a legal move.

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Todd
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Okay, I'm convinced you guys are right as to the first question (regarding where the #2 car in a draft ends up when the lead car switches lanes at the end). I still don't think it is "realistic" (I watch a good bit of nascar and indy car), but I think it makes for a better game.

As to the second question, we have disagreement among those who posted. Some of us think that a 5 car draft goes out of turn order --and follows the lead car (I'm in this group). The most recent poster thinks you must follow turn order and so if, say, the #3 car in the draft line is first in turn order, then he doesn't get to follow the draft --instead he has to go out on his own. I agree that the rules seem to say this because there is no exception to the turn order rule. But in terms of "realism" this makes no sense. Why in the world would the middle car in a draft leave the draft? It just doesn't happen that often unless the middle car is trying to pass (or in game terms, if the lead car got a crappy roll).

I think I'll stick with the suggestion that all cars in the ddraft get to follow the lead car regardless of turn order --unless I see a FAQ to the contrary. I admit I'm not thrilled with this result as it seems contrary to the (very brief) rules, and so I an open to more discussion.

thanks.

starscream wrote:
FezAZ wrote:
Interesting idea about shaking a drafting car. I don't agree though I am probably wrong. It seems to me the drafting car is following the lead car. If the lead car switches lanes on its last move (say from the middle lane to the outside lane) that the drafting car would simply end up behind it in the outside lane one spot back --and NOT in the middle lane of the same row as the lead car. This is what would happen in "real" racing. But am I wrong about this?

Another drafting question.

5 cars in a row. All drafting. But assume Lead car does not go first (based on turn order determined at beginning of game) on the turn. Say the 3rd car in the draft goes first each turn. Does that #3 car that gets to go first have to declare whether it is drafting behind the lead car BEFORE he knows what the lead car is going to do, or can he effectively wait and then say he is drafting if the lead car does something good for him, or say he is on his own if the lead car checks up or the like?


Steven's answers are correct above. Just to further clarify.

Yes, in real Nascar racing the lead car tries to shake a car from drafting by changing lanes. Especially on the longer, faster race tracks near the end of the race it is common to see the leader zig zag on the straight aways to break the draft of someone close behind in second. They don't want to the second place car to draft right up behind them and get sling-shot out front going into the turn.

Back to this game, again I don't have the rules right here in front of me, but I am almost 100% sure it is stated that if a person chooses the full draft (skip their next turn) they must follow the EXACT path the front car took, and stop in the second to last movement spot. This space might be directly behind the front car, or it might be diagonally behind depending on the path the front car took.

For the other scenario you described where car #3 of a five car draft has his turn before the cars in front of him... Pretty much that car has no choice but to leave the draft. He has to take his turn right then, the rules do not allow you to skip your turn, or wait for the cars in front to move first. The drafting has to happen in turn order. The game doesn't have the concept of bump drafting like on some tracks in real racing. So you have to do your turn, go out of the draft line and pass or move along side the cars in front of you. The only legal way you could stay in the draft line is if you chose to "check up" and rolled a 1 or 2, and thus didn't move at all.

The other way to think about it from how the rules are written. You can't ever choose to draft when it is your turn. Drafting only happens on other cars' turns. In the situation you described if it is car #3's turn, they can't declare anything in regards to the draft. They have to declare what speed they are going, roll the dice and make a legal move.

 
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Mike Cook
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Ok I looked at the rules. It is a bit confusing.

In section 4, it says you can draft when a car in front of you moves.

However, in Both sections A and B it clearly says when the active car moves you can go 1 space or follow the active car.

I have to interpret this as no multi car drafting.

 
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Todd
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I suppose that makes sense. But I'd love an official FAQ on it. If multicar drafting is permitted, but strict turn order is enforced, then the cars that go first each turn would have a huge disadvantage --because they could never draft. So either you have multicar drafting --but go with the earlier suggestions that you can follow the lead car even if technically your turn is first, or you have no multicar drafting because the cars that happen to go first each turn would never be able to draft.

As multi-car drafts are a BIG part of nascar racing, it would seem that not permitting them is odd. Seems to me the best rule is to permit them and to let the cars go out of turn order when they are in a draft (instead they would go in strict car order behind the lead car in the draft). We've tried this in play, and it seems to work.
 
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Steven Packard
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Quote:
Ok I looked at the rules. It is a bit confusing.

In section 4, it says you can draft when a car in front of you moves.

However, in Both sections A and B it clearly says when the active car moves you can go 1 space or follow the active car.

I have to interpret this as no multi car drafting.


I've now been able to put my hands on the rules as well, and they read exactly as Stonewall says.

But that HAS to be a typo. Sure, a typo in three places, but a typo nonetheless.

It just doesn't make sense to me in either real life, or in terms of the game itself.

As Stonewall says, the instructions say:

Quote:
4. Drafting
Drafting is like a free move! When your car is directly behind a car that moves, you may draft after that car....


That seems clear and is consistent with the descriptions above that discuss how and why a line of drafting cars all move in a follow-the-leader fashion when the lead car is active.

BUT the rules go on with the following examples:

Quote:
A. Move your car forward 1 space along the same path as the active car.
OR...

B. After the active car moves, move your car to the next-to-last space the active car was in before it stopped....


Also, there's a two part diagram showing an example of the "type B." draft (which shows the lead car zig-zagging to break the draft, by the way), and the first part of that diagram is labelled:

Quote:
Active Car Moves


(Of course all the underlines are my added emphasis.)

Clearly by reading these rules we'd have to say that I was wrong above, and you can only draft an Active car. But that's GOT to be an error; surely they intended to replace the word "Active" with "moving" in the rules sections quoted above.

It would be fantastic if there was a link or an official FAQ or even an official spokesperson who could give the definitive answer here. But until there's an official ruling saying otherwise, I've got to believe that the intention of the game is to allow lines of drafting.

(Note that I'm continuing to acknowledge that I'm no expert, but that doesn't keep me from having strong opinions on the topic.)

Two more quick points:

1. If the game didn't EXPECT there to be lines of cars drafting out of "active car order" which is established at the beginning of the race, I don't think that they'd have the part in the rules about flipping your card upside down after you draft like that, as a reminder that you've moved outside your normal Active car turn. Your sole action when it's your car's turn to be Active is to flip it rightside up again.

I don't think this would be necessary to keep straight if they weren't expecting long lines of drafting cars.

2. In the instructions, next to the 2 part diagram on drafting that I referenced above, there's a circle with text in it which states:

Quote:
All cars can draft the car directly in front of them!


Surely this is further validation of the theory that "Active" is a typo for "moving" in the instructions regarding Drafting. The way I read this note it's saying that all the cars in a line behind the leading car will draft the car in front of it when that car moves.

By the way, I appreciate everyone's viewpoint on this. I'd much rather learn what is RIGHT and play it that way than to merely demand that I'm correct no matter what. If I'm wrong, I want to learn that and change the way I play it. But so far I'm not convinced.
 
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Mike Cook
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Yes thanks for looking into it.

I, like you, am know expert, but just my 2 cents worth:

1)You need to turn guys cards sideways because several drivers could be drafting on different car, plus running 5 or 6 cards in a race gets confusing even if there is only 1 drafter.

2) I don't think the game is designed to have a huge 4 car draft as a) drafting is too powerful and b) if so the leader would be followed around by 4 or 5 card endlessly like a pack of mosquitoes and c) the drafting cars don't roll which makes them generic and takes away their weaknesses or reduces their strenghts

What do you think?

 
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Steven Packard
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Please bear with me. Most if not all readers are probably snore by now, or at least gulp at the thought that they have to sit through another one of my ramblings on this topic.

But just as I posted my most recent message on this thread, I wondered if we were misintrepretting what "Active Car" means. After looking at the rules, I think we all have been.

Under "3. Moving Your Car" the rules state:

Quote:
When it's your turn to move your car, your car is called the active car.


When you keep that definition in mind as you read the rules on Drafting, I don't think there's any discrepancies or typos.

In our example of 5 cars in a drafting line, when it's Car #1's turn, it's Active and moves like normal. Then Car #2 chooses to draft by following Car #1's path. Car #2 moves, by definition becoming the Active Car. When Car #2 finishes moving, Car #3 decides to draft -- which is perfectly legitimate because it's directly behind the Active Car. Car #3 becomes the Active Car and follows the path of #2. And so on.

As soon as this line of 5 cars has finished drafting, then the next car whose turn it is after Car #1, and which wasn't in that drafting line of Cars #1-5, then becomes the Active Car and makes its move.

I believe that this eliminates the controversy and clears the confusion. Or is there another way to look at this that I'm missing?
 
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I have played with multi-car drafting allowed, but seeing the rules posted above, I concede that may be wrong per the rules. I third the statment that an FAQ about how exactly it is intended to work would be nice. When it states in one place "the car in front of you" and another place "the active car", it is hard to understand which is correct.

Regardless of that rule though, I think the rules are pretty clear that the active car has to make a legal move and can't choose to draft or sit in line. (well with the exception of checking up and rolling a low number) In fact it says if you are boxed it and it is your turn, you take damage equal to the movement you couldn't do.

As for the realism aspects. IMO the biggest problem this game has toward the realism is that in racing everything is simaltaneous. A turn based game, it just can't capture that perfectly.

I still maintain the switching lanes to break the draft is a real practice used in Nascar though. It doesn't apply to every track certainly, but take the truck race this past weekend at California. The last two laps had Mark Martin leading over Todd Bodine. Each of those last straight aways, Martin had his lead truck go back and forth from way up by the wall, down to the bottom line. Bodine tried to suck up right behind him and follow the pattern as close as he could on the straights, and then get a run on him going into the corner. Bodine hung good that second to last lap, but on the final lap Martin was able to wiggle enough air between them that he couldn't quite keep the tight draft and have a chance at the pass.

I don't know that multi-car drafting is that BIG overall in Nascar either. Certainly it is big on the restrictor plate tracks, Daytona and Talladega. But that is only two of the tracks. Any drafting is almost non-existant in Nascar on the short tracks or road courses. On the intermediate tracks (the vast majority of the tracks) the cars get spread out. There really isn't much multi-car drafting going on then. You can draft a bit on the car immediately in front of you but that is about it.

The game itself is just too simple to factor all that in. There is no difference in the game between drafting on a super speedway vs a short track. There is nothing to account for restictor plates or bump drafting.

Lastly, even "having to move" out of the draft because you are the active car is not all that un-realistic. Every car wants to stay in the draft and just follow that line. But no matter how hard drivers try they get shuffled in and out of the draft all race long against their will. It wouldn't really seem any more realistic to me that an active car could just always decide to not take it's turn and just stay perfectly in line. That is not really how it works in real racing either. As it is currently in the game, if you are in the middle of a draft and are the active car. You either will get better dice rolls than the lead car and end up in the front of the line after a few turns, or you get worse dice rolls and end up at the tail. Eventually you could fall a whole turn back, and then your turn won't be out of sequence anymore. You will be in the back of the line and will be last in the turn order.

 
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Steven Packard
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Stonewall says:

Quote:
1)You need to turn guys cards sideways because several drivers could be drafting on different car, plus running 5 or 6 cards in a race gets confusing even if there is only 1 drafter.

2) I don't think the game is designed to have a huge 4 car draft as a) drafting is too powerful and b) if so the leader would be followed around by 4 or 5 card endlessly like a pack of mosquitoes and c) the drafting cars don't roll which makes them generic and takes away their weaknesses or reduces their strenghts

What do you think?


Since you asked....

I don't think I understand your #1 point. When the turn order is established at the start of the race, I just make sure that all the cars' cards are placed on the table in that order, so we don't get confused about whose turn it is.

Then, during any drafting, I flip the drafting car's card upside down to show that it's drafted. Then whenever "an upside down card" car has its turn per the turn order, I flip it rightside up, but make no other action with that car and move on to the next car in turn order.

Doing it this way tends to avoid all confusion (as long as I remember to flip and unflip at the right time); this makes me think that I'm missing your point with #1.

Regarding #2a, yes drafting is powerful, but I think it's supposed to be. It's a desireable strategy to take advantage of, with the trick being to decide when it's best to leave the middle of the pack and go for it.

And for 2b, it's part of the strategy as the leader to decide how best to shake those parasites from your tail. Also, as soon as the leader really flubs a movement roll, the 2nd car is likely to leave the draft to make its own (hopefully better) move. Of course, Car #3 would probably draft Car #2 at that point, and the chain might continue, just with a different leader.

In other words, a long draft line won't be in place for the whole race, although it might be there unchanged for a few turns. But eventually the leader will successfully shake the pack, or it will break up on its own -- probably to form a similar but different chain with different cars and/or a different order.

As for #2c., I think that's part of the strategy again. Would you rather play it safe and keep with the pack until the right time to leave ... or do you want to break out early so that you can take advantage of the particular skills the car or driver has which makes it unique?

It's decisions like this that makes this a fun, quick game. It's got a lot of potential to be too light and simple to be fun -- which is why I avoided getting it for awhile. But I underestimated it by a lot. Even though it's a simple game (but a FAQ would sure be nice), it's not without interesting choices to be made throughout the race.

In fact, I'll go so far as to say WITHOUT the long-line drafting available, it would probably quickly devolve into a boring decisionless roll and move racing game.
 
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Todd
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I like the distinction about what constitutes an "active" car. I plan to keep the multi-car drafting method of playing and I plan to add the idea that you can "break" a draft by simple switching lanes with your last move (when possible). It makes no sense to have the 4th car in a multi-car draft go first, and so I plan to play accordingly. Thanks to everyone for their thoughtful comments and suggestions.

BTW, bought my first 2006 pack today at my FNGS and got a rare Gordon and an uncommon Busch. I ordered a bunch of packs (and the value box) from bouldergames at a good price but they aren't in.
 
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Mike Cook
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WhiteKnight85:

My point #1 - was in response to your comment. I thought you were saying something to the effect of - if there was no multi-car drafting, why the need to turn cards sideways to remember they've moved?

My response is- pretend there is no multi-car drafting. In an 8 car race, say car #1 goes and car #6 drafts it, turned sideways. Car #2 goes and car #4 drafts it, turn #4 sideways. Car #3 goes and car #7 drafts, #7 gets sideways. Finally car #4 goes but gets skipped, then #5 goes, then #6 gets skipped, then #7 gets skipped and finally #8 goes and rolls.

So even without multi-car drafting, to me, anyway, turning cards sideways to help remember makes sense.

New Consideration:

The main reason I decided multi-car drafting wasn't legal was because cars can move twice or more before a differnt car can move once.

Keep in mind I have only played on the small track. But this scenario can and will happen on a small track, but maybe not on a big one.

Let's say it is an 8 car race, and the cars are #1 thru #8 in turn order.

Say car #1 is leading and cars #3,#5 and #7 drafting it in a four car draft.

So #1 rolls a 4 and goes 4, and #3,#5, and #7 all draft it. Now say after moving 4 spaces the lead car #1 caught up the the lagging #2 car.

So #2 rolls a 5, and then #1,#3,#5,and #7 all draft it. So #1 gets turned sideways, I guess #3,#5, and #7 get turned all the wayupside down now to denote two skips.

Say now that the #2 car, after moving 5 spaces catches the #4 car.

Car #3 goes and gets skipped, and gets turned from upside down to sideways.

The #4 car rolls and gets a 6. So now #2,#1,#3,#5, and #7 all draft it.

So we turn the #2 sideways to show it's gone once, turn the #1 and #3 upside down to show they've gone twice, and totally invert the the #5 and #7 cars to show they have gone 3 times.

So now car #5 goes and gets skipped, and is un-inverted and merely turned upside down to denote is must skip 2 more moves.

Car #6 is now up. But see, at this point, car #7, because of drafting, has moved 3 times befoe it the #6 car goes once.

 
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Steven Packard
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Stonewall:

Wow. That's one heck of an example. And a heck of a point.

I see in general what you're saying with your example; I've printed it out and need to follow along with my cars at home to be sure -- right now my mind isn't quite clear enough to picture every move properly.

You raise an EXCELLENT point regarding the situation where a lead draft car almost laps a slow car and nestles in behind it. It does seem as if in that situation the slow car would be the new leader of a chain of drafting cars, and that on its next move it would "pull" the drafting chain in a situation which would give the drafting cars an extra move that round -- and that can't be right.

My first thoughts are that this lapping situation can be remedied by stating that a car, drafting or not, CANNOT move if its card is flipped (i.e., if it has already moved this round). This seems like a logical convention. However, I'm the first to admit that it seems to contradict the "All cars can draft the car directly in front of them" comment that I referenced above in support of my "long chains of drafting cars is OK" argument above.

I'll try to weasel out of this sticky situation by saying that since the rules state:

Quote:
If your car's Dashboard card is face down when it becomes your turn, your car may not move that turn.


... then we might assume that the "All cars can draft the car directly in front of them" statement has an implied "unless the drafting car's Dashboard card is face down" tacked on.

To me this is a reasonable assumption, but admittedly it IS an assumption.

Let me address the issue of card flipping/turning. I think we've been using different terminology and it may have clouded the issue. (Which is one of the reasons that I want to run through your example later on so that I can be exactly sure of when and why you're turning each card.)

Earlier when I've said something about flipping a card, or turning it upside down, I meant to indicate turning a card from face up to face down position. I think you're talking about rotating cards 90 or 180 degrees, but still keeping it face up. I'm going to change my terms to face up or face down for clarity. So it's like a light switch: the card is either face up or face down, on or off, and there's no other state for it to be in.

Let's also define a "round" as a period of game play that begins when the Pole Sitter has a turn, and ends when the car that started the race in last place finishes his turn -- in other words, in one round, each car has ONE turn.

During each and every round, each car has a turn. The car who started the race first goes first, the car who started 2nd goes next, etc.

In my worn-out example of a chain of five drafting cars, say the #3 car in the chain started the race in last place. When the #2 car drafts #1 and finishes drafting, #3 decides to draft also and follows #2, and then #3 puts its Dashboard card face down. The round continues, and since he started the race in last place, Car #3 has the last turn of this round.

However, his Dashboard card is face down, so the ONLY thing he does on his turn is to flip his card face up. Then the new round begins with the Pole Sitter taking his turn.

But to go back to your very interesting example, say that my line of 5 drafting cars catches up to the back of the slow pack, and Car #1 moves so that it's behind Car #Z. Cars #2-5 continue drafting #1, and each of them have their Dashboard face down due to drafting #1.

So ... if Car #Z started the race in 2nd place, and Car #1 is the Pole Sitter, then Car #Z would be next to move....

Dang. My example was going so well. But Car #1's Dashboard card would NOT be face down, and according to the rules could make another move (by drafting #2). That can't be right. Especially because I was just about to state that Cars #2-5 could NOT draft for the simple reason that their cards are face down.

My example gets even worse if #Z started the race somewhere in the middle, or the end, and half of my chain of cars have their cards face up by the time that #Z gets its move.

OK, you got me. Intuitively I think that long draft chains HAVE to be allowed -- even expected. But my reasoning breaks down as soon as the lead car laps the trailing cars.

I'd love to hear what all of you have to say about this. My schedule is such that I'm very unlikely to be able to post any messages after this one for at least 24, maybe 48 hours. So I'll be silent, but still be very interested in knowing what the consensus is on this topic.

I really thought we had it nailed down....
 
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S J
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Okay, I have dug around on the Wiz Kids site a little bit, because this whole topic has me curious.

As stated there is no "official" FAQ. WizKids has stated there never will be. This is not a game they every intended any serious tournament play with. They want to game to be accessible to kids and thus it is a simple game. They encourage each group to form house rules to cater the game for the group and level of realism or sim you want. In fact they support a whole forum of house rules to add various complexity not found in the base game.

However, they have stickied an unofficial FAQ in the forums. One of their support people said it is a great unofficial FAQ and they encourage people to read and discuss it. Also the designer of the game has read it and gave feedback to it, and it has been modified based on the developer's feedback. So it is probably as close to official as we will get.

So per that FAQ and the developer's feedback to it:

Multi-Car drafting is allowed and intended in this game. Any car that moves, a car directly behind may draft it.

You may draft one or more times on the same turn if given the opportunity. After the first time you choose to do a full draft (option b where you end in the second to last movement spot of the car you are following) you turn your dashboard upside down to indicate that you lose your next turn. You only lose your NEXT turn regardless of how many times you were able to draft.

The active car is intended to only mean the car that must roll movement dice that turn. Only cars adjacent to the active car roll for bumping. So cars at the end of the draft line (not next to the active car) do NOT roll checks for bumping even if they got to move as a result of the draft.

If the current active car's dashboard was upside down, of course they just flip it right side up and do nothing, turn is over. However, if the current active car's dashboard is right side up they HAVE to move. Even if they are in the middle of a draft line, they still MUST declare a speed, roll the dice and attempt a legal move. Sitting in the line and doing nothing is not a legal option, if you choose to "check up" and roll a 1 or 2 you have made a legal move of 0 spaces and can stay put. If you are completely boxed in, you take damage equal to your required movement.

You can draft on the first turn of the game. You can not draft if you are spinning (superspeedway rules).

To specifically address Stonewall's scenario, which other people in the WizKids forums also have brought up. That is considered so rare that it almost never happens. If it does happen it is consider a very good move by those who were able to take advantage of it. Just like in real racing some cars get stuck behind and left in the dust by the leaders.

I would point out how pretty much impossible that should be if some of the other players didn't want it to happen. If the lead car changes lines say four or five times in their movement it completely destroys the drafting line. The drafting line has to follow the exact movement path of the lead car, and will end up all diagonal from each other unable to draft again. In the scenario above there was like three different lead cars. Why would each of lead cars go in a straight line allowing the draft line to stay perfectly intact at each exchange? What advantage would the lead car have in dragging the other cars with each time? Sure sometimes you can't switch lanes that often because there is other traffic, but there is pretty much no way there is that much traffic if there is a draft line behind you, and other cars that you are getting directly behind. Combine that with the unlikely chance you roll the correct die roll each turn to just get behind the next car perfectly.

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Todd
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Thanks for the research on the wizkids site Sheldon. Interesting. So if I read your post correctly, multicar drafting is permitted, but not really. By this I mean if the middle car in the draft pack is the active car -then it has to roll dice --it can't just stay in the draft pack. Did I get that right?
 
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S J
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FezAZ wrote:
Thanks for the research on the wizkids site Sheldon. Interesting. So if I read your post correctly, multicar drafting is permitted, but not really. By this I mean if the middle car in the draft pack is the active car -then it has to roll dice --it can't just stay in the draft pack. Did I get that right?


Correct. Even in the situation where the active car is completely blocked in on all sides, it still HAS to choose a speed, roll the dice and take body damage equal to the movement it couldn't do. If there are legal moves you have take them, you can't choose to take the body damage and stay in line if there is an alternate path you could take.

There are three exceptions to the above:

1. You did a draft option b (full draft) during the last round of turns and your dashboard is upside down as result. In this case you don't choose a speed or roll the dice. You just flip your dashboard over and end your turn. In this case your car will stay in line right where it is.

2. You choose the check-up speed and roll a 1 or 2. In this case you move zero spaces, and thus stay in the line right where you were. (if you were successful at this, you would probably be in the situation described in 1. on the next turn)

3. On superspeedways coming off a pit road, you *might* be able to choose to do nothing. Not really a draft issue... but it sort of applies here. The FAQ says there are two options that can be played in that case. I would think that before the game starts on a speedway track, with pit stops, you should declare ahead of time which option is going to be used. If the track is blocked with traffic right at the exit off of pit road you could allow either 1. The cars exiting the pits to skip turns until the track is clear and they can safely re-enter. OR 2. Force them move and take body damage just like normal. I bring this up because, if you declared ahead of time that cars on pit road are not forced to move unto the track until it is clear (option 1), this would be the third exception of when an active car might not HAVE TO roll dice and actually move some number spaces.






 
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Mike Cook
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Cool thanks for the info. Let me ponder and try it out.

I will say that on the two short tracks, there are several spaces you need to avoid or you can get trapped in and not be able to move. In the short track race, if you can't move and check up and roll a 6 you take 4 body and if you fail a check you are out of the race just like that.

So around curves, it is often much better to let someone draft you than cutting to an inside space where you can get trapped.

 
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Dave C
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Ok.. I read a lot of this thread .. and then had to scroll down here after reading the question and watching it continually be not answered...

Yes multi-cars can draft..

How it works... ok.. cars qualified in order.. 1,2,3,4,5

halfway through the race car 1 is in the lead.. 2 is beside #1.. and 3,4,and 5 are all in line behind #1.


#1 moves.. 3 desides to chose drafting option A (the one where he follows all the way behind #1).. so does #4...(thus turning over their "dashboard".. then car #5 decides to take just one "free" space.

The result of the above is that #1 has moved, #3 and #4 are still behind #1 and have given up their next turn... and #5 moved along one space but still has his turn available..

so.. #2 rolls and moves... the 3&4 are skipped (and turn their dashboards back to the front to indicate they are in the turn cycle again).. then #5 rolls and moves.

Then it's #1's turn again... this is why you MUST keep play going in the qualifying order.

Anyway.. it's the drafting and blocking that actually give this game a lot more strategy than most people give it credit for... Knowing when to fully draft and when to just take a free space can be crucial..

In the example above, #5 could have caught or passed the whole line.. or maybe caught #2 and started drafting that car.. or backed off expecting a wreck.. ..or #2 could have got in line behind #4 and picked up the draft if he rolled badly.

Being in the lead on the last lap may not be the best place to be... roll badly and the whole line of cars will take their one "free" space then jam the gas and pass you.

I like the game.. it gets more like NASCAR everytime I play.
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