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Subject: First game left me with a few questions rss

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Ben Turner
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Hey all,

After a first playthrough of SotM, I was left with a few questions, some of which I was fairly sure about, but a couple I was quite shaky about. I played solo, pitting Tempest, Wraith and Haka against Baron Blade in Megalopolis.

Tempest "Shielding Winds" + Haka "Ta Moko"; when Haka takes 5 damage, I presume I can combine these, by applying them in the order written, to take only 2 damage (5 initial, then -2, then -1) ?

Wraith "Throat jab" - when applied to Baron Blade (with no mobile defense platforms to make him immune), this prevents all damage from him until Wraith's next turn ? So no "Backlash field" or "Slash and Burn" damage, as they come from the Baron (as written) ?

I also presume this has to deal at least one damage after modification; e.g. if attacking an Advanced Baron Blade (-1) with a living force field (-1), then the throat jab would do a total of 0 damage and not apply it's effect ?

I assume the Baron's "Backlash field" can damage every hero (but only once per hero) on a turn ?

Megalopolis "Targeting innocents" only pulls out an "Impending Casualty" if there is one in the trash ? But if there is one, then not only does it apply it's fire damage and pull out "Impending Casualty", but you equally apply the start of turn effect of "Impending Casualty" as well ?

Finally, "Police Backup" - I didn't see a card I thought should cause it to be discarded (e.g. a villain card what would make a player discard a card). The Baron's "Devious Disruption" says that player's MAY destroy any of their equipment, but the keywords of MAY and DESTROY lead me to believe this doesn't apply, as it didn't MAKE them discard a card, it just left the option there - besides which they are DESTROYING equipment / ongoing effects, rather than discarding cards in hand. I think there was one card "consider the price of victory" that discarded cards, but it didn't come up.

Not that the Baron minded the police presence, with his force field almost always on...

Thanks for any answers; I did check the clarifications on Spiff's resources site, but it only mentioned changes between the wording on editions, rather than clarifications of the meanings.

Oh... and I won the game (12 turns. Final HPs = Tempest: 7, Wraith: 14, Haka: 16) - probably from playing low complexity heroes vrs one of the easiest villains, but happy that it wasn't a total cakewalk, and that combos and well-timed cards, like Wraiths "Throat Jab" and Hakas "Ground Pound" to prevent the Baron's backlash field ripping us apart, won the day.

Regards,
Ben (-PW-)

 
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brian
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Phantomwhale wrote:
Hey all,

After a first playthrough of SotM, I was left with a few questions, some of which I was fairly sure about, but a couple I was quite shaky about. I played solo, pitting Tempest, Wraith and Haka against Baron Blade in Megalopolis.

Tempest "Shielding Winds" + Haka "Ta Moko"; when Haka takes 5 damage, I presume I can combine these, by applying them in the order written, to take only 2 damage (5 initial, then -2, then -1) ?

When things try to happen simultaneously from different cards, it should be the order of the cards played. If Shielding Winds was played first, then it would work as you want. But if Ta Moko was played first, it would reduce it to 4 and then SW would not be triggered.

Quote:
Wraith "Throat jab" - when applied to Baron Blade (with no mobile defense platforms to make him immune), this prevents all damage from him until Wraith's next turn ? So no "Backlash field" or "Slash and Burn" damage, as they come from the Baron (as written) ?

Correct. That is why the wording of cards is important - it will always tell you who or what is dealing the damage. So even if it comes from a card, if it says Blade, then he won't attack.

Quote:
I also presume this has to deal at least one damage after modification; e.g. if attacking an Advanced Baron Blade (-1) with a living force field (-1), then the throat jab would do a total of 0 damage and not apply it's effect ?

Yes, Damage has to be at least 1 in order for the rest of the card to trigger.

Quote:
I assume the Baron's "Backlash field" can damage every hero (but only once per hero) on a turn ?

A "turn" is not a "round." So he can actually hurt every hero on the environment turn, and again on his villain turn, and again on each of the Hero's actual turns too. Just depends what might be prompting damage and his backlash.

Quote:
Megalopolis "Targeting innocents" only pulls out an "Impending Casualty" if there is one in the trash ? But if there is one, then not only does it apply it's fire damage and pull out "Impending Casualty", but you equally apply the start of turn effect of "Impending Casualty" as well ?

Correct. if there is not one in the trash, it won't pull one out. If it finds one, then it is still "start of turn" so it would trigger as well.

Quote:
Finally, "Police Backup" - I didn't see a card I thought should cause it to be discarded (e.g. a villain card what would make a player discard a card). The Baron's "Devious Disruption" says that player's MAY destroy any of their equipment, but the keywords of MAY and DESTROY lead me to believe this doesn't apply, as it didn't MAKE them discard a card, it just left the option there - besides which they are DESTROYING equipment / ongoing effects, rather than discarding cards in hand. I think there was one card "consider the price of victory" that discarded cards, but it didn't come up.

Not that the Baron minded the police presence, with his force field almost always on...

Destroy and discard are different. Destroy gets rid of a card in play. Discard gets rid of a card in hand (or the deck if it specifically says so). Some things won't always trigger based on your villain/environment/hero combos.

Quote:
Thanks for any answers; I did check the clarifications on Spiff's resources site, but it only mentioned changes between the wording on editions, rather than clarifications of the meanings.

Oh... and I won the game (12 turns. Final HPs = Tempest: 7, Wraith: 14, Haka: 16) - probably from playing low complexity heroes vrs one of the easiest villains, but happy that it wasn't a total cakewalk, and that combos and well-timed cards, like Wraiths "Throat Jab" and Hakas "Ground Pound" to prevent the Baron's backlash field ripping us apart, won the day.

Regards,
Ben (-PW-)


Congrats.
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Scott Bender
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Phantomwhale wrote:
Hey all,

Tempest "Shielding Winds" + Haka "Ta Moko"; when Haka takes 5 damage, I presume I can combine these, by applying them in the order written, to take only 2 damage (5 initial, then -2, then -1) ?


Yes.

Quote:
Wraith "Throat jab" - when applied to Baron Blade (with no mobile defense platforms to make him immune), this prevents all damage from him until Wraith's next turn ? So no "Backlash field" or "Slash and Burn" damage, as they come from the Baron (as written) ?


The key phrase you need to look for is "the Baron deals damage." Devices that come out of his deck that do damage, characters doing damage to themselves, redirects, etc would be exempt from the effects of Throat Jab.

Quote:
I also presume this has to deal at least one damage after modification; e.g. if attacking an Advanced Baron Blade (-1) with a living force field (-1), then the throat jab would do a total of 0 damage and not apply it's effect ?


It's a good question. In some instances subsequent effects are NOT dependent on the outcome of a damage effect. Throat Jab states "the target dealt damage this way . . .". There is some frustration among players that "dealing/dealt" is a bit ambiguous but the official ruling is what you surmised - if the target doesn't take damage the effect doesn't happen.

Quote:
I assume the Baron's "Backlash field" can damage every hero (but only once per hero) on a turn ?


The play of an individual deck is a "turn." So each hero that damages BB would get the backlash for their first instance of damage. But then so would any environment target that damages BB. Any subsequent instance of damage in an individual turn would not.

Quote:
Megalopolis "Targeting innocents" only pulls out an "Impending Casualty" if there is one in the trash ? But if there is one, then not only does it apply it's fire damage and pull out "Impending Casualty", but you equally apply the start of turn effect of "Impending Casualty" as well ?


The dealing of fire damage is distinct from the search/play of Impending Casualty. So if Impending Casualty is not in the trash (and thus not searchable/playable), Targeting Innocents would still deal fire damage. But yes, it is still "Start" when Impending Casualty comes into play so it's text would take effect.

Quote:
Finally, "Police Backup" - I didn't see a card I thought should cause it to be discarded (e.g. a villain card what would make a player discard a card). The Baron's "Devious Disruption" says that player's MAY destroy any of their equipment, but the keywords of MAY and DESTROY lead me to believe this doesn't apply, as it didn't MAKE them discard a card, it just left the option there - besides which they are DESTROYING equipment / ongoing effects, rather than discarding cards in hand. I think there was one card "consider the price of victory" that discarded cards, but it didn't come up.


Correct. Discard is from your hand. Cards in play are destroyed.

Quote:
Thanks for any answers; I did check the clarifications on Spiff's resources site, but it only mentioned changes between the wording on editions, rather than clarifications of the meanings.

Oh... and I won the game (12 turns. Final HPs = Tempest: 7, Wraith: 14, Haka: 16) - probably from playing low complexity heroes vrs one of the easiest villains, but happy that it wasn't a total cakewalk, and that combos and well-timed cards, like Wraiths "Throat Jab" and Hakas "Ground Pound" to prevent the Baron's backlash field ripping us apart, won the day.

Regards,
Ben (-PW-)


It looks like you have a good grasp of the basic mechanics of the game! Welcome to SotM!

edit: ninja And brian was right about the timing of the damage reduction played in question 1 - I overlooked that. But then, overlooking things like this are pretty par for the course in SotM. Note, though, that his answer on the Backlash Field queston is incorrect because it assumes that that card affects all hero targets at once. It does not. It affects that target that dealt the damage. See my response.
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Pydro
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I think what ColtFan76 meant on the Backlash Field was one of 3 things:

1) Each hero can theoretically be hit on the environment turn, not just on their turn (this would also be true if a hero can damage a villain not on that heroes turn).

2) That each hero can be hit again on the environment turn (the first time being on their turn).

3) On the environment Turn, Backlash Field can theoretically hit every hero, if each and every hero manages to hit BB on the environment turn. BLF field says the first time each target... So if multiple targets hit him once on a single turn, each would take damage from the BLF. The only time someone wouldn't take damage. is if they hit for more than one instance of damage in a single turn (not round).

Anyways, I think he was correct.
 
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Mark Campo
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how can you keep track of if tempests winds or hakas damage reduction are out 1st?

 
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Pydro
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Honestly, the game doesn't really come with a way to keep track of it. When it comes to different effects within a single deck, I find it easiest just to lay out the cards in the order played. Obviously, this doesn't work when cards are in different decks. I think the key here is to recognize when it might be an issue, and then try to remember. If you need to, you can put counters on the cards in order to remember which was out first.

Besides effects based on damage thresholds, there are 2 other fairly common situations.

1) Global damage changes: Since cards are processed in play order, when there are 2 cards that change everyone damage, everyone will do the damage of the 2nd card. Once you see cards like this come up, try to pay attention to which ones were out first.

2) Skipping turns: Sometimes, you have the opportunity to skip your turn, for example, with the Countdown in Mars. You will get the chance to skip your turn during your Start-of-Turn. All Start-of-Turn effects happen in the order played. For example, if you were playing Bunker and you had down Gatling Gun and Omni-Cannon before the Countdown, you can actually deal damage and charge Omni-Cannon before skipping the rest of your turn. however, if Bunker played those cards after Countdown came out, you would not get the chance.

Try to recognize the situation where it matters, then either make a mental note, or put down some counters.
 
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brian
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Pydro wrote:
I think what ColtFan76 meant on the Backlash Field was one of 3 things:

1) Each hero can theoretically be hit on the environment turn, not just on their turn (this would also be true if a hero can damage a villain not on that heroes turn).

2) That each hero can be hit again on the environment turn (the first time being on their turn).

3) On the environment Turn, Backlash Field can theoretically hit every hero, if each and every hero manages to hit BB on the environment turn. BLF field says the first time each target... So if multiple targets hit him once on a single turn, each would take damage from the BLF. The only time someone wouldn't take damage. is if they hit for more than one instance of damage in a single turn (not round).

Anyways, I think he was correct.

I was just trying to illustrate that the number of turns per round is H+2, where H is obviously the number of heroes.

So even if I was hit on my own turn, if something caused me to do damage to Blade on any of the other turns (heroes, villains, or environment), in each of those instances, the first time I do so, I am subject to backlash.

So to your list, #3 was closest to my intent on my answer. #1 is also applicable but a subset of #3. #2 isn't true in the context of this discussion.
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Pydro
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ColtsFan76 wrote:

#2 isn't true in the context of this discussion.


Actually, based on your explanation, it seems like it is exactly #2. You are saying that a hero can be hit on every turn, I just didn't specify that a hero needed to deal damage first.
 
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brian
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Pydro wrote:
ColtsFan76 wrote:

#2 isn't true in the context of this discussion.


Actually, based on your explanation, it seems like it is exactly #2. You are saying that a hero can be hit on every turn, I just didn't specify that a hero needed to deal damage first.

No, I don't know why you are making a distinction between them being hit the first time on their turn and a second time on the environment turn. The first and second has nothing to do with it.

There are other possibilities. And the order you have placed has no bearing on the current discussion.
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Pydro
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I simply put them in the order that they will actually happen. Yes I could have put villain, hero, environment, but I didn't see the need to, as the most common situation is that it will hit the hero first on his turn. I was only pointing out that it could happen "again" and used an example. I am not even sure why you would assume this is the precise situation I was talking about, as opposed to an example showing that they can be hit more than once in a round.
 
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brian
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Pydro wrote:
I simply put them in the order that they will actually happen. Yes I could have put villain, hero, environment, but I didn't see the need to, as the most common situation is that it will hit the hero first on his turn. I was only pointing out that it could happen "again" and used an example. I am not even sure why you would assume this is the precise situation I was talking about, as opposed to an example showing that they can be hit more than once in a round.

Because you said "first time" and "hit again." You are the one that put them in that order. I am saying it doesn't need to be that precise order. Environment turn might be when they are hit first. Regardless, it doesn't matter in the context of the discussion because it doesn't matter if the heroes are hit or not - it matters if they deal damage.

But whatever, I am tired of discussing things with you. You seem to want to be argumentative for the sake of being argumentative.
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M.C.Crispy
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ColtsFan76 wrote:
But whatever, I am tired of discussing things with you. You seem to want to be argumentative for the sake of being argumentative.
Happens here too eh? Also spotted on the Elder Sign forums. Still, least you're not being admonished for typing the poster's username wrong
 
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Ben Turner
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Brian (and others) - many thanks for the answers - and Brian, thanks for the explicit clarity as always; it's been that style of rigour from your answers that helped me master Arkham Horror a few years back!

The biggest revelation there is certainly the card placement order - I had picked this up, and was laying cards into the play area in the order they were laid, but hadn't considered timing issues between cards within different play areas.

I guess if such timing issues don't come up A LOT, then it might be easy to just identity and note the few times it does, and stay vigilant for them.

Dying for another game soon - might have to have another solo run through before my next scheduled group meetup !
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Bern Harkins
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My group has encountered timing ambiguities involving cards in different play areas, and after some discussion, have decided to go with this

Totally Unofficial House Rule:

If the order of play of two or more cards could not be determined by an observer just entering the room, then the players will choose the order of their execution.

Not perfect, but is saves a lot of book keeping.
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Andrew Arenson
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ColtsFan76 wrote:
Pydro wrote:
I simply put them in the order that they will actually happen. Yes I could have put villain, hero, environment, but I didn't see the need to, as the most common situation is that it will hit the hero first on his turn. I was only pointing out that it could happen "again" and used an example. I am not even sure why you would assume this is the precise situation I was talking about, as opposed to an example showing that they can be hit more than once in a round.

Because you said "first time" and "hit again." You are the one that put them in that order. I am saying it doesn't need to be that precise order. Environment turn might be when they are hit first. Regardless, it doesn't matter in the context of the discussion because it doesn't matter if the heroes are hit or not - it matters if they deal damage.

But whatever, I am tired of discussing things with you. You seem to want to be argumentative for the sake of being argumentative.


I think Pydro just enjoys being precise. Hi, Pydro!
 
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Kevin Walsh
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Radulla wrote:
My group has encountered timing ambiguities involving cards in different play areas, and after some discussion, have decided to go with this

My experience is that it doesn't usually come up very often, and in those cases you can generally remember it. In fact, Shielding Winds and Counterpoint Bulwark are the only Hero cards I can think of that cause that issue.
 
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