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Pathfinder Adventure Card Game: Rise of the Runelords – Base Set» Forums » Rules

Subject: tricky question about blessings rss

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Hodoward
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Have a look at the rulebook page 9: the blessing of the gods.
This will give you one extra die for a check or +1 exploration
Additionaly you can treat it as the top card on the blessing discard pile.
So lets look at the blessing of calistra on page 15.
It will give you the extra die or +1exploration too, but also 2 dice for dex checks.
On top of this it has a recharge ability, if the top card on the blessing discard pile is the same.The blessing of the gods itself has no recharge ability.
So my idea is, that all blessings have this +1 die,+1 exploration (and maybe something special) so you may always treat the blessing of the gods as the top card because then you will get the automatic recharge, since logically it is the same card when you treat it as such. Hope I made myself clear here.

So theoretically you won't never run out of these blessings, because you can always treat them as the top card.

What do you think? Am I correct and is this what the designers intented?
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Darrell Goodridge
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The rulebook doesn't explicitly explain what happens if the Blessing in your hand matches the timer pile. But I would say that if ALL the other Blessings are worded the same as Calistra, with a recharge ability, then yes, I think they intended to always have Blessing of the Gods recharge. But if the other Blessings are worded differently from each other, then I imagine it would have to be FAQ'd.
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Ken Marley
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It wouldn't work if blessings of the Gods is on the blessings deck pile, since it doesn't have a recharge ability. But in general I think you are correct. You should usually be able to recharge blessings of the gods.
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Bubba P
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Why would it say "if the top card on the blessing discard pile is the same" if they were actually all the same?
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Hodoward
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RHPDaddy wrote:
Why would it say "if the top card on the blessing discard pile is the same" if they were actually all the same?

They're not the same. But it looks like they all have the same base abilities and one additional ability.
But blessing of the gods is the most basic blessing and also the preffered one for the startup decks.
Anyway, I just watched the watch it played video again and saw the exact same situation, but Mike and Chad were not treating this card in the way I described. So it's cleary not what they had in mind with this card.
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Mike Selinker
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Hodoward wrote:
RHPDaddy wrote:
Why would it say "if the top card on the blessing discard pile is the same" if they were actually all the same?

They're not the same. But it looks like they all have the same base abilities and one additional ability.
But blessing of the gods is the most basic blessing and also the preffered one for the startup decks.
Anyway, I just watched the watch it played video again and saw the exact same situation, but Mike and Chad were not treating this card in the way I described. So it's cleary not what they had in mind with this card.


No, that's not the way it works. The card can either copy the text of the top card of the blessings deck discard pile, or have its own. But if it's taking the text of a Blessing of Calistria, it is not *actually* that card. So it doesn't "match" the card, because it is not the card itself.

We have discovered at least one other occasion where we need to add in the bizarre rule "Cards' abilities cannot trigger their own abilities." So we'll be closing off these apparent loopholes soon.

Mike
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Darrell Goodridge
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Hi Mike,
Maybe you could clarify just what does happen when a Blessing in your hand matches the Blessing on the clock? Maybe that would help us understand what Blessing of the Gods does a little better.

I think this sentence: "The card can either copy the text of the top card of the blessings deck discard pile, or have its own." is what is intended, but then what is the bonus for matching? Is that on a per Blessing basis?

Thanks
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Mike Selinker
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Cardboardjunkie wrote:
Maybe you could clarify just what does happen when a Blessing in your hand matches the Blessing on the clock? Maybe that would help us understand what Blessing of the Gods does a little better. I think this sentence: "The card can either copy the text of the top card of the blessings deck discard pile, or have its own." is what is intended, but then what is the bonus for matching? Is that on a per Blessing basis?


Sure, no problem.

Let's say I have a Blessing of the Gods (BotG) in my hand. A Blessing of Calistria (BoC) is on top of the blessings deck discard pile.
If I play the BotG as "itself," I can get +1 die or +1 exploration.
If I instead play the BotG to copy the BoC, I can get +1 die, +1 exploration, or +2 dice on a non-combat Dexterity check.
Its power used, I now go to the discard step of the card play.
I then discard the BotG, because it is *not* a BoC, and thus does not match the BoC atop the blessings deck discard pile.

Now, let's instead say I have a BoC in my hand, and another BoC is atop the blessings deck discard pile.
I play the BoC, for +1 die, +1 exploration, or +2 dice on a non-combat Dexterity check.
Now it does match, so instead of discarding my BoC, I recharge it (put in under my deck).

Does that clarify things? If not, please tell me where you think the problem is.

Mike
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Brian Grell
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Makes sense to me. It's only copying the powers portion of another blessing not the other parts such as the recharge requirement.
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Hodoward
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Thanks for clarifying this, mike.
I thought this was not what you intended with the blessing of the gods, because it would make all other blessings more or less obsolete.
It just sounded to me that you could use all the features off the top card and not only its power.
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Darrell Goodridge
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Yes, it's much clearer now. Thank you for clarification. Now I'm curious if all other blessing types have the recharge mechanic or if they are varied effects.

Also, what happens when you match a Blessing of the Gods? Nothing special?
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Brian Grell
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Nothing, as it has no text on it saying to do anything if a card matches it.
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Mike Selinker
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Cardboardjunkie wrote:
Yes, it's much clearer now. Thank you for clarification. Now I'm curious if all other blessing types have the recharge mechanic or if they are varied effects.


All the ones in the base set have the recharge mechanic. That may or may not be the case forever.

Mike
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David R
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mike selinker wrote:
[q="Cardboardjunkie"]Does that clarify things? If not, please tell me where you think the problem is.

Mike


From what I can see that doesn't clarify things as that's in direct opposition of the Blessing of the Gods card says. Blessing of the Gods is identical to the top blessing in the blessing discard pile. If you play a blessing that matches the blessing on the discard pile, you can instead recharge it. How are matches and identical different?
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Dan the Mysterious
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mike selinker wrote:
Cardboardjunkie wrote:
Maybe you could clarify just what does happen when a Blessing in your hand matches the Blessing on the clock? Maybe that would help us understand what Blessing of the Gods does a little better. I think this sentence: "The card can either copy the text of the top card of the blessings deck discard pile, or have its own." is what is intended, but then what is the bonus for matching? Is that on a per Blessing basis?


Sure, no problem.

Let's say I have a Blessing of the Gods (BotG) in my hand. A Blessing of Calistria (BoC) is on top of the blessings deck discard pile.
If I play the BotG as "itself," I can get +1 die or +1 exploration.
If I instead play the BotG to copy the BoC, I can get +1 die, +1 exploration, or +2 dice on a non-combat Dexterity check.
Its power used, I now go to the discard step of the card play.
I then discard the BotG, because it is *not* a BoC, and thus does not match the BoC atop the blessings deck discard pile.

Now, let's instead say I have a BoC in my hand, and another BoC is atop the blessings deck discard pile.
I play the BoC, for +1 die, +1 exploration, or +2 dice on a non-combat Dexterity check.
Now it does match, so instead of discarding my BoC, I recharge it (put in under my deck).

Does that clarify things? If not, please tell me where you think the problem is.

Mike


Using your same example. Can the BotG copy the ability to recharge from BoC instead of its check buff options? For instance, you would copy the recharge option(from BotC) and add one die to a combat check(as part of the original BotG).
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Ken Marley
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az28 wrote:
mike selinker wrote:
Cardboardjunkie wrote:
Maybe you could clarify just what does happen when a Blessing in your hand matches the Blessing on the clock? Maybe that would help us understand what Blessing of the Gods does a little better. I think this sentence: "The card can either copy the text of the top card of the blessings deck discard pile, or have its own." is what is intended, but then what is the bonus for matching? Is that on a per Blessing basis?


Sure, no problem.

Let's say I have a Blessing of the Gods (BotG) in my hand. A Blessing of Calistria (BoC) is on top of the blessings deck discard pile.
If I play the BotG as "itself," I can get +1 die or +1 exploration.
If I instead play the BotG to copy the BoC, I can get +1 die, +1 exploration, or +2 dice on a non-combat Dexterity check.
Its power used, I now go to the discard step of the card play.
I then discard the BotG, because it is *not* a BoC, and thus does not match the BoC atop the blessings deck discard pile.

Now, let's instead say I have a BoC in my hand, and another BoC is atop the blessings deck discard pile.
I play the BoC, for +1 die, +1 exploration, or +2 dice on a non-combat Dexterity check.
Now it does match, so instead of discarding my BoC, I recharge it (put in under my deck).

Does that clarify things? If not, please tell me where you think the problem is.

Mike


Using your same example. Can the BotG copy the ability to recharge from BoC instead of its check buff options? For instance, you would copy the recharge option(from BotC) and add one die to a combat check(as part of the original BotG).


Wouldn't work, since it is not a BoC it is a BoG, even if it is copying its powers it doesn't copy its name.

I agree this is confusing, and it defiantly needs to go into the FAQ.

For a practical point of view this is necessary, if BoG let you almost always recharge then BoG, then the starting basic blessing would be the most powerful blessing in the game.
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Brian M
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youperguy wrote:
Wouldn't work, since it is not a BoC it is a BoG, even if it is copying its powers it doesn't copy its name.


It is not copying its powers. "You may instead treat this card as if it were identical to the top card of the blessings discard pile."

Quote:
I agree this is confusing, and it defiantly needs to go into the FAQ.

No, I would say that the Blessing of the Gods is perfectly clear. It's just not how they meant it to work. Since when we played, we found this was pretty much the primary driving mechanic of the entire game, with how much we could do on a turn mainly determined by whether or not a blessing of the gods appeared on top of the blessing pile, how in the world did this wind up in the game like this? shake

I'm now wondering what else we did wrong, since we were down to the last turn even with cycling our decks and having been tossing pretty much every Amulet of the Gods to explore. We wouldn't have had even a vague chance without being able to recharge them.

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Lucas Wan
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youperguy wrote:

For a practical point of view this is necessary, if BoG let you almost always recharge then BoG, then the starting basic blessing would be the most powerful blessing in the game.


And therefore including BoG in the starting character decks made perfect sense.

Something to add to the errata pile.
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Donny Behne
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Dmrickey wrote:
mike selinker wrote:
[q="Cardboardjunkie"]Does that clarify things? If not, please tell me where you think the problem is.

Mike


From what I can see that doesn't clarify things as that's in direct opposition of the Blessing of the Gods card says. Blessing of the Gods is identical to the top blessing in the blessing discard pile. If you play a blessing that matches the blessing on the discard pile, you can instead recharge it. How are matches and identical different?


If it said "you may play this as if it were the top card of the blessing discard pile" then it would work. But the BotG is still a BotG. When you go to discard it, it goes away because it looks like the top blessing but is not actually the same card.

I wouldn't belabor the point with the game designer.
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Brian M
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kelann08 wrote:
If it said "you may play this as if it were the top card of the blessing discard pile" then it would work. But the BotG is still a BotG. When you go to discard it, it goes away because it looks like the top blessing but is not actually the same card.

I wouldn't belabor the point with the game designer.


No, the BotG IS the same blessing whatever as on top of the discard pile. That's what "identical" means.

While it's now quite clear how this is meant to work, the reason to belabor the point, as you put it, is to help point out good and bad wording for future design. The Pathfinder card game is being fun, but it's got some very bad rules wording in it.

Oh, incidentally, regarding my earlier statement...
Quote:
I'm now wondering what else we did wrong, since we were down to the last turn even with cycling our decks and having been tossing pretty much every Amulet of the Gods to explore.


It turns out that mostly what we "did wrong" was to manage to shuffle EVERY henchman and the villain to the bottom 2 cards of their respective location decks.
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StormKnight wrote:
kelann08 wrote:
If it said "you may play this as if it were the top card of the blessing discard pile" then it would work. But the BotG is still a BotG. When you go to discard it, it goes away because it looks like the top blessing but is not actually the same card.

I wouldn't belabor the point with the game designer.


No, the BotG IS the same blessing whatever as on top of the discard pile. That's what "identical" means.


Yes, it's pretty clear that the wording on the card simply contradicts what the designers intended. Identical means identical, there's no getting around it. Nowhere in the rules does it say, "identical except for the Recharge text."

Very annoying!
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Mariano Rico
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Wretched Git wrote:
StormKnight wrote:
kelann08 wrote:
If it said "you may play this as if it were the top card of the blessing discard pile" then it would work. But the BotG is still a BotG. When you go to discard it, it goes away because it looks like the top blessing but is not actually the same card.

I wouldn't belabor the point with the game designer.


No, the BotG IS the same blessing whatever as on top of the discard pile. That's what "identical" means.


Yes, it's pretty clear that the wording on the card simply contradicts what the designers intended. Identical means identical, there's no getting around it. Nowhere in the rules does it say, "identical except for the Recharge text."

Very annoying!


Actually, is not about not copying the recharge part, the explanation is that even if the text of the Blessing of the Gods is identical to the one on top of the discard pile, it is still a Blessing of the Gods, so it doesnt match and thus cannot be recharged.

But the designers have aknowledged the wording should be more clear. It will be in the FAQ for sure.
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Acererak wrote:
Wretched Git wrote:
StormKnight wrote:
kelann08 wrote:
If it said "you may play this as if it were the top card of the blessing discard pile" then it would work. But the BotG is still a BotG. When you go to discard it, it goes away because it looks like the top blessing but is not actually the same card.

I wouldn't belabor the point with the game designer.


No, the BotG IS the same blessing whatever as on top of the discard pile. That's what "identical" means.


Yes, it's pretty clear that the wording on the card simply contradicts what the designers intended. Identical means identical, there's no getting around it. Nowhere in the rules does it say, "identical except for the Recharge text."

Very annoying!


Actually, is not about not copying the recharge part, the explanation is that even if the text of the Blessing of the Gods is identical to the one on top of the discard pile, it is still a Blessing of the Gods, so it doesnt match and thus cannot be recharged.

But the designers have aknowledged the wording should be more clear. It will be in the FAQ for sure.


You don't get it, this isn't MTG where we have years of rulings to fall back on. The card, says "you may treat this card". As in the whole card. It doesn't say "you may treat this card's power". So at that point, yes, it is whatever card is on top of the blessings discard pile and is no longer a blessing of the gods card when it is in the process of being discarded.

That's what the exact text implies.
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Andy Partridge
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It's true that there are not years of rulings to fall back on, but there is one from the designers on their website as part of the FAQ. So at that point, we all know what was intended and how it should be played.
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Craig S.
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The Ferb wrote:
mike selinker wrote:


No, that's not the way it works. The card can either copy the text of the top card of the blessings deck discard pile, or have its own. But if it's taking the text of a Blessing of Calistria, it is not *actually* that card. So it doesn't "match" the card, because it is not the card itself.

Mike


Wow! This is fantastically annoying, outrageously bad! It feels like you're invalidating a lot of my play here, from your seeming inability to understand the word "identical".

Yes, it most certainly does "match" the card, because that. is. the. definition. of. the. word. IDENTICAL!! come ON! How can you try and defend this? Are you joking? You messed up royally, here.

End rant. Now to replay some friggin crap ton of games, or perhaps just dump the whole enterprise.

crap. I'll put it all away for a time, at lest. too frustrated to play at present.


For what it's worth, BotG has received errata to clarify that it can only copy the powers section of the top card of the blessings discard pile. Nothing having to do with recharging is copied, nor is the name of the card changed.
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