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Subject: ??? about fighting out of ties; Charming; and some misc. rss

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Clint Walker
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Hi.

Love the game. I find it a charming diversion in a world of stronger stuff.

A few questions though:

1. When you try to steal an opponents crime, and you end up in a tie, I know how you handle that for scoring. But what are your options for handling this if you still have turns left in a round?

Can you opt to back out of the tie and fight somewhere else? or are you considered to be "locked in" to the crime like you were before someone else came along and tied you?

Can you choose to "refight" the same crime, with the hopes of retaking it with a higher number?

What about any cards that give bonuses to you if you defeated a supervillain, and you do, but someone ties with you? Do you still get the Fame bonus (I say no on this one, since the rules say you dont get any bonuses if you tie).

2. When it comes to the Charm ability, what happens if you you want to fight crime with it, but one of your two dice is already on the board because of an eariler fight crime action with your other hero? Is this just a cosmetic issue, and you just crib an extra die from those leftover, or roll one die twice? Or can you not roll both dice since they aren't both avialiable anymore?

3. Can you move a hero into crimeland? I know you cant fight crime there, but can you at least move though it?

4. Can you step a hero off the edge of the city? If you can, where does he go? Does he "wrap around" to the oppisite edge? I dont know where I might have thought this, I think the first game of this I ever played, we played it this way.

Thanks for all the help.
 
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Frank Branham
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1. Once you are in a tie, you are locked in and can take no other action with that hero. The idea is that you are still really fighting an extended battle in the crime space for the rest of the turn, and are locked in. You can't roll again or do ANYTHING with that character while his die is on a crime. No move. No reroll. You are permitted to whine, though.

Bonuses are ignored, including both the point and special effects form the spaces and Supervillain cards.

2. For the charm ability, you still get to roll two dice, even if one of your dice is locked. Steal one from another player for the roll.


3. You can move into Crimeland.

4. You cannot move off the board.

You really want to go to the Quest Machine site and pull the 2.0 rulebook. It is clearer. While it does include new rules for the expansion bits, the rules for Hero drafting and Justice tokens can be used with the base game...Justice tokens tends to balance the game a little more, making the endgame more interesting.

Moo,
Frank
 
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Clint Walker
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Thanks for the help.

And now the inevitable followups.

1. As for the justice tokens, which I assume can be used without the expansion in a pinch, just by using coins or something as tokens.

Anyhow, if you get a justice token once you fail a crime roll, can you instantly turn around and spend that token to increase the die roll you just made?

2. When told to discard action markers because of a research card, can the bonus markers on a hero card (like for super speed or supersenses) be chosen as the ones set aside for the round?

Thanks for the help.
 
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Frank Branham
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Good questions...

1. No. You've already failed, and can only use the Justice token in a FUTURE die roll. Please tell me I remembered to add that future word in the appropriate sentence.

And of course Justice tokens are just diecut cardboard stars. You can of course use anything.

They do a couple of interesting things to the game:

A: There is the obvious balance thing. Scores tend to be closer.
B: The +1 strength tokens become more valuable, as they are the o ly way you can apply a strength of more than 6 to a crime.
C: The game is actually a little shorter. It becomes more liekly that someone will get those high-value crimes.

2. (I'm not ENTIRELY certain of this one.)
When we were playtesting and writing the rules, Sam always made a strong distinction between Action Tokens and Bonus Action Tokens. The rules are really not clear enough on this in the text, but I would say...no. You must burn real Action Tokens on research.

(My ruling really does make sense, when you think about it thematically. If you can fly, being able to apply the advantages of the flying power to situations which don't require flying would be kind of wrong. The character really would be using the fly ability to get to further away crimes instead of tearing through research cards. )

Moo,
Frank


 
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Clint Walker
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thanks for all the help.

New question:

1. If a player has won the combat, and another hero is moving in to steal it, and another player plays a supervillian card that bumps up the combat value of the block before the stealer rolls, does that knock the previous winner of the block back out of contention if the value is raised over what he rolled, or the original combat value?

And what's more, can the leader in a combat choose to supervillian his own block if someone comes by to steal it?

so, just to clarify the crime token thing...

2. Let's say I go into a combat with ONE crime token.

I fail my combat roll (which means I earn one crime token), but while I am allowed to use the token I came into combat with, I cannot use the one I just earned. Do I have that right?

Is there a specfic order by which these steps are carried out? In other words do I get my new crime token after any adding to the roll with existing tokens is finished, just so no one tries to sneak one through?

3. Can someone use crime tokens to advance their die BEYOND the rolled number you might be trying to steal from? The original rules state that when you get put into a tie, you cant do anything else; I would think that the most you could do with crime tokens is TIE when stealing, in accordance to those rules.

4. This one isn't crime token related, but I dont understand the rules with the villians that include a penatly for the ATTACKING player at the end of a round. From what I see, attacking is a "do or do not" thing, and I dont see how you determine that at the end of a round.

Example: Let's just say I move into a block and try to fight the crime. Just before I do, an opponant playes a supervillian that states that if the attacking player dosent beat it, they lose a gadget. I roll, and fail. Now, if I decide to move off before the end of the round and leave that block behind, does that mean the supervillian penalty effect "follows" that hero until the end of the round? That's the only way I can think this rule works, since an attack isn't something that lasts the whole turn; a player either makes the roll, or fails, upon which that hero gets to do something else that turn, and isn't considered to be in "attack mode" anymore.


Just wondering. I find the crime token idea a good one, although there's a part of me that finds the way they are earned kind of cheap; I don't see what the logic is in rewarding a player who keeps losing rolls, other than just providing them some pity chances to get back in the game.

I see what you mean about keeping the game even, as I've found that it's (sometimes) hard to get back in the game if you are more than six or seven hero points behind, but I dont know, part of me would still feel kind of cheated if I was beating the heck out of someone in terms of combat rolls and they come back from behind through the use of crime tokens they earned from LOSING rolls.

But I understand the difficulty in finding a way to add new stuff to the game without adding new cards and stuff like that, and I like the way they are used in the game, in terms of adding to the die roll only.
 
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Frank Branham
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Yib-Yab wrote:
thanks for all the help.

New question:

1. If a player has won the combat, and another hero is moving in to steal it, and another player plays a supervillian card that bumps up the combat value of the block before the stealer rolls, does that knock the previous winner of the block back out of contention if the value is raised over what he rolled, or the original combat value?

And what's more, can the leader in a combat choose to supervillian his own block if someone comes by to steal it?


Yes and Yes. Page 16 of the rewritten 2.0 rulebook does state that an existing die is compared to the Supervillain value.

And you can DEFINITELY play a Supervillain on a crime which you are currently fighting. It is played BEFORE the die is rolled, so there is a risk involved.



Yib-Yab wrote:


2. Let's say I go into a combat with ONE crime token.

I fail my combat roll (which means I earn one crime token), but while I am allowed to use the token I came into combat with, I cannot use the one I just earned. Do I have that right?

Is there a specfic order by which these steps are carried out? In other words do I get my new crime token after any adding to the roll with existing tokens is finished, just so no one tries to sneak one through?

Not really. You just take you die back and someone tosses you a JUSTICE token.

Yib-Yab wrote:

3. Can someone use crime tokens to advance their die BEYOND the rolled number you might be trying to steal from? The original rules state that when you get put into a tie, you cant do anything else; I would think that the most you could do with crime tokens is TIE when stealing, in accordance to those rules.


You can increase a successful die roll with justice tokens beyond the target number. The 2.0 rulebook was included with the mostly abandoned expansion. It includes rules for the new cards from the expansion as well as rewrites, clarifications, errata, and more examples. The original rules didn't have the Justice tokens from the expansion, so....there wasn't anything else you could do.

Yib-Yab wrote:

4. This one isn't crime token related, but I dont understand the rules with the villians that include a penatly for the ATTACKING player at the end of a round. From what I see, attacking is a "do or do not" thing, and I dont see how you determine that at the end of a round.

Example: Let's just say I move into a block and try to fight the crime. Just before I do, an opponant playes a supervillian that states that if the attacking player dosent beat it, they lose a gadget. I roll, and fail. Now, if I decide to move off before the end of the round and leave that block behind, does that mean the supervillian penalty effect "follows" that hero until the end of the round? That's the only way I can think this rule works, since an attack isn't something that lasts the whole turn; a player either makes the roll, or fails, upon which that hero gets to do something else that turn, and isn't considered to be in "attack mode" anymore.


Um...yeah. That was the worst offense in the original game. The Supervillain cards were replaced wholesale in the expansion to fix this. Mostly the text was changed so say that you suffer the Supervillain effect if you fail your crime roll instead of end of the round.

Yib-Yab wrote:

Just wondering. I find the crime token idea a good one, although there's a part of me that finds the way they are earned kind of cheap; I don't see what the logic is in rewarding a player who keeps losing rolls, other than just providing them some pity chances to get back in the game.

I see what you mean about keeping the game even, as I've found that it's (sometimes) hard to get back in the game if you are more than six or seven hero points behind, but I dont know, part of me would still feel kind of cheated if I was beating the heck out of someone in terms of combat rolls and they come back from behind through the use of crime tokens they earned from LOSING rolls.

But I understand the difficulty in finding a way to add new stuff to the game without adding new cards and stuff like that, and I like the way they are used in the game, in terms of adding to the die roll only.


Actually, justice tokens were born out of critical reaction to the game. The Eurogamer crowd didn't really seem to like the whole single die and compare value aspect of the game. The idea is for justice tokens is ripped whole and bleeding from the rather clever Dwarven Dig, and I wasn't sure it belonged in Heroes Inc. when I first tried it...but I do prefer the game with Justice Tokens.

Justice Tokens offer a few more tactical choices, keep the game closer, and shorten the game by a turn or so. (Crimes are a little easier to fight--so scores each round are higher.)
 
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Jose Zagal
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Quote:
Just wondering. I find the crime token idea a good one, although there's a part of me that finds the way they are earned kind of cheap; I don't see what the logic is in rewarding a player who keeps losing rolls, other than just providing them some pity chances to get back in the game.


Having playtested this game (a lot) I can say that the justice tokens basically make the game a lot tighter and more competitive. A slew of missed rolls is still bad news, but at least you still have a fighting chance of catching up later... I'd rather make all the rolls than get a bunch of justice tokens..

I also found, believe it or not, that it added a some more strategy to the game (it's not always obvious when to spend/not spend the tokens...in particular if you're sitting on a nice crime and don't want someone else to steal it from under you!).

Also, tighter games (in terms of scores) make the endgame a lot more exciting!
 
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Carl Forhan
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So let me ask something obvious which I don't see clearly stated in the rules... are Combat +1 tokens and Justice tokens "spent" (as in tossed in the box / discard pile / whatever) when used? Or do they stay with the hero for the rest of the game? Or do they stay with the hero, but can only be used once per round?

If they're spent, then the heroes who have the Combat +1 power don't seem all that great...
 
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Stephen Sekela
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+1 Combat tokens are not 'spent', but are kept indefinitely (until someone plays a nasty card on you and you lose it). They can only be used once per round, since, of course, and one hero can only fight one crime per round.

As far as the justice tokens go, I don't know. I've seen the expansion rules, but since THEY NEVER ACUALLY RELEASED IT (to my knowledge), we haven't looked at them in depth.

I LOVE this game, I just wish they would actually have produced the expansion...

Hope this helps!
 
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Carl Forhan
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Well, I just recently acquired the expansion. Regardless, ANYONE can play with Justice tokens simply by downloading the new rulebook and using some buttons/coins/etc. The rules say Justice tokens are limited to three per team, but I find the rules confusing on this point because they talk about "spending" Justice tokens but never explicitly state what that means.

Good to know about the Combat +1. I figured since there are three slots on each hero card for these, that meant they were permanent but again the rules are not clear on this issue. Not to mention it would be impossible to beat those tough villains without multipler Combat +1 tokens!

I've only played one time (and with the SUPER expansion on this first time), and it does seem like a nifty game. However, I think the rules could have been organized a tad bit better.
 
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Stephen Sekela
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Carl, where/how did you get the expansion?

Yeah, I know you can use buttons and stuff, but no thanks...

There are additional heroes/cards that I don't remember being available for download/printout on the company website...
 
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Carl Forhan
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FYI, I recently bought out the publisher's remaining stock of the unpublished SUPER expansion. You can buy it for a limited time here on BGG or directly on my website:

http://songbird-productions.com/catalog.shtml
 
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Frank Branham
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Page 24. You spend a Justice Token to add a point to a Combat die roll.

The idea is lifted directly (with the designer's permission) from the underated Dwarven Dig, where if you blow a roll, you get "grit" which allows you to add a point to a future die roll.

The odd thing in Heroes Inc. is that Justice Tokens are added directly to the die right after you roll it, while the Combat Tokens add to whatever value is on the die. Justice Tokens cannot bring a die above 6, while the Combat tokens can. Makes them pretty freaking powerful.

Moo,
Frank
 
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Carl Forhan
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Right, I eventually figured that out. It's just that I didn't see a lot of clarity in the rules about whether or not you "spend" Combat +1 tokens, so then I started off confused about the Justice tokens, too. And "spend" is kind of a vague word since you "spend" Action markers to perform Actions, but then you get all the markers back at the end of the turn.

But it all makes sense now. And yes, using Justice tokens in concert with one or more Combat +1 tokens is a pretty staunch combination!
 
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