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Subject: Deadbeat / Slacker Traders! Geeklist Reference rss

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Sterling Babcock
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This article is just a reference to the Deadbeat / Slacker Traders! Geeklist

http://www.boardgamegeek.com/geeklist/9644

The problem is that a geeklist cannot be pinned, but an article can be. So this article allows this geeklist to be easily found over time.

(Please do not post comments here. Look at the geeklist.)
 
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B. Perry
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Unfortunately, this geeklist has been removed. And the thread in which Aldie announced that is was removed was also removed. As far as I can tell, there isn't any more information as to why.

If there was a backup of the list (in someone's cache?) and if Aldie would agree, I'm sure we could post a link to a different website that could host the bad traders list.
 
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Ken B.
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What?! The list got removed? That list was essential! I can't imagine the rationale given, but it must have been pretty dodgy if the description is gone, too.


That was a great thread, it protected traders. Oh, well.
 
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Sterling Babcock
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Unfortunately, it is gone. Hopefully Aldie will be able to post an explaination and that a new methodology of feedback will be implemented. As an admin, I do not think I can comment.
 
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yegods
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that is terrible news. it means that all those users who essentially stole games from other users here can do it again, and again, with no means of stopping them or warning others. ridiculous. i think we need some sort of comment here from Aldie.
 
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Severus Snape
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This file must be cached on the web someplace--who was it last week that found the silly ASL/ATS filed cached on the web, posted it back onto the geek, so that silly fight could begin all over? I am not suggesting that anyone "circumvent" Aldie's request. It just seems that whatever we put on the web, stays on the web, whether we want it to or not. After all:


Big Brother is Watching You.


goo
 
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M. Shanmugasundaram
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As the creator of the list, I believe I can safely say that I am annoyed and disappointed. I would have at least hoped for a courtesy notification that the list was going away.

But then, I don't run or manage this board, and I don't want to.

I do hope the feedback system gets improved, or something replaces the list to protect visitors from unscrupulous and/or lazy traders. The disclaimer of "We aren't responsible for your trade success or marketplace transactions," (i.e., Caveat emptor) is, quite simply, bullshit.

Here's the thought:
If you provide a mechanism for marketplace/transaction/trade venue of any kind, you ARE responsible for the quality of the transactions that take place. There has to be some level of security in place.

A trade forum isn't a mechanism. BGG goes far beyond that with the trade organizer "module," with its shipment notification and history features. There IS a level of liability involved if you're going to provide enhanced support for transactions.

And the current system (last I checked) doesn't cut it.

Google cached the list as of October 6th. I don't believe there were any updates between then and now.

I have a copy of the list in Evernote, as a web page, and as a PDF file, for my reference.
 
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Sterling Babcock
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rumble wrote:
There IS a level of liability involved ...


Precisely. The removal may not have been by choice.
 
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B. Perry
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franklincobb wrote:
I can't imagine the rationale given...


One or more legal actions were threatened. Rather than face an expensive lawsuit, Aldie closed the geeklist.
 
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James Perry
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Kayvon wrote:
franklincobb wrote:
I can't imagine the rationale given...


One or more legal actions were threatened. Rather than face an expensive lawsuit, Aldie closed the geeklist.


At this point, I do not feel comfortible running any math trades without such a list or a manner in which I can block users from participating. I feel bad enough when people involved in a math trade have issues and/or are ripped off by unknown slackers/deadbeats but to not have a way to track and eliminate the known ones just hurts me.

Aldie if you are reading this, then please allow us to report on deadbeats in some manner or give us the ability to blacklist them on a personal basis.
 
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Ken B.
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Kayvon wrote:
franklincobb wrote:
I can't imagine the rationale given...


One or more legal actions were threatened. Rather than face an expensive lawsuit, Aldie closed the geeklist.



Gotta love the legal system--you can be a scumbag, but when someone calls you out on it, you just sue 'em. It's too expensive for them to prove you're a scumbag, so you get off scot-free.

Oh, well. I'd memorized most of the bad traders on that list anyway. It's future ones I'm worried about. I'm getting to the point where I'm weary of trading anyway--I've had so many good experiences that I'm inevitably due a bad one--and this just sort of seals the deal.


You can't provide people with a self-governed system like this and then buckle under pressure when that system attempts to protect itself from bad elements.

Guess I'll just cool it on the trading for awhile.
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Tim Gilberg
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Regai wrote:
Kayvon wrote:
franklincobb wrote:
I can't imagine the rationale given...


One or more legal actions were threatened. Rather than face an expensive lawsuit, Aldie closed the geeklist.


At this point, I do not feel comfortible running any math trades without such a list or a manner in which I can block users from participating. I feel bad enough when people involved in a math trade have issues and/or are ripped off by unknown slackers/deadbeats but to not have a way to track and eliminate the known ones just hurts me.

Aldie if you are reading this, then please allow us to report on deadbeats in some manner or give us the ability to blacklist them on a personal basis.


Better idea.

Do a trade, wait to get scammed, and sue Aldie and BGG for running an operation that invites and encourages scammers. I can't imagine any reason for both taking a bad trader list down as well as taking down any reference to doing so that doesn't reflect badly on the geek.

Bet those with supporter badges feel a bit screwed about now.
 
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M. Shanmugasundaram
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Kayvon wrote:
franklincobb wrote:
I can't imagine the rationale given...


One or more legal actions were threatened. Rather than face an expensive lawsuit, Aldie closed the geeklist.


I'm really sorry about that. Both the fact that this situation arose, and that Aldie had to kowtow to the %#@&~^.

Although the list was handy because it brought the roaches into the light, it did one thing that we can't replicate any other way:

As soon as one of the offenders blasted us for exposing them, we locked on to their ID. If they changed their User ID, WE COULD STILL TRACK THEM. This was particularly evident with one of the deadbeat/slackers who kept changing his user ID. I think he went through three or four, and every time he did, his forum posts reflected the change. He couldn't hide.

And now they can. They can get a few good ratings under their belt for piddly trades and then really screw someone when it maximizes their profit.

There HAS to be an innocuous way to track people whom you won't deal with, whom -- ah, wait, I think I've found a way. It's a personal sacrifice, but it's worth it.

You can continue to send me your additions to the list. For the mod's sake, I won't be keeping a public record of your complaints, or posting publicly on how to find this list. But I can at least maintain an enduring, trackable, and publicly viewable list of BGG users who I won't trade with.

There are only two criteria to making this new "system" work:

1) To add someone to the list, you must provide me with enough documentation to convince me that you were wronged. You have to give me reasonably solid evidence that someone either communicated poorly and really dragged their heels on a deal, or never followed through on their obligations/agreements.

2) Trust me. If you trust me, then you don't trust the people on the list I maintain. It's that simple. If you don't trust me, my list is worthless.

Since I will never be making any potentially libelous statements in public, there's no reason for Aldie to fear a lawsuit. I wish there were a better, clearer way to do this. But I'll do what I can while the higher-ups try to find a good solution for those of us with integrity and respect for our fellow traders.
 
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Severus Snape
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Quote:
Bet those with supporter badges feel a bit screwed about now.


I do not feel "screwed about," though I can see why you would feel frustrated. I have had great success with trades on BGG. I have probably had at least ten more trades that are not in the official trade record, but they happened because of BGG. I know that it is human to focus on one disappointment, while forgetting about the nine other great things that have happened in one's life. If I do get the short end of a trading stick one day, I hope I will still remember all the great games I got through trades with great Geeks.

If you want to experience being "screwed about" with (it's too early in the morning for me to correct the poor grammar in this sentence), spend time on Fleece-Bay, which is supposed to "protect" the buyer/seller. One reason I will not use Scam-Bay anymore is my own buyer/seller experience, as well as that of others.

More power to the Geek and to BGG! goo
 
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Mike Pranno
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So at this point, what makes BGG trade feedback and Marketplace feedback so untouchable? Probably nothing. I would be curious to see how eBay handles such lagality, because there is so much more at stake. At the very least, the person who caused the KO of the list should be banned for life... and there is nothing legal they can do to prevent that.
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M. Shanmugasundaram
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Gilby wrote:
Do a trade, wait to get scammed, and sue Aldie and BGG for running an operation that invites and encourages scammers.


That's hideously unproductive. I do not advocate this behavior. Just because assholes act like assholes doesn't mean I/you should.

Drew1365 wrote:
My guess as to the legal situation? Full names, addresses and in some cases telephone numbers were posted in a public location without consent of the individual.


Yep. And I explicitly discouraged this. All I wanted was a way to track, blacklist, and avoid the online user, not potentially endanger people.

I'd be happy if I could just "mark" people to not show up in my trade matching list, and then share that blacklisted group with others. We could easily establish "trust networks" this way, in much the same way that social networking works on LinkedIn.

This way, I envision this type of scenario:

A trusts B, C, D, and doesn't trust F and G.
E trusts A, and by association trusts B, C, and D, and doesn't trust F and G.

A gets burned by C, and moves C from the trust to the no-trust list
C gets AUTOMATICALLY moved from E's trust to no-trust list.

Now THAT would be a cool feature.
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yegods
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i really am curious as to why Aldie hasn't responded to this thread. this issue really threatens the usefullness of the trading feature on BGG, and quite possibly the Marketplace too.

maybe we could repost the original bad trader list, but without the addresses and phone numbers?

And as far as Ebay goes... i've had over five hundred transactions over the course of around 8 years, and have only been screwed once -- and that was from a user that just disappear off the face of the earth, might have died. whereas, here i've had two hundred trades, and have had at least three screw jobs. now you calculate the percentages, and you can see that there seems to be a better chance of getting screwed here, than on Ebay. so i would definitely like some protection. the bad trader list was one excellent form of both protection and prevention.

bring it back.
 
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Mike Pranno
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yegods wrote:
And as far as Ebay goes... i've had over five hundred transactions over the course of around 8 years, and have only been screwed once -- and that was from a user that just disappear off the face of the earth, might have died. whereas, here i've had two hundred trades, and have had at least three screw jobs. now you calculate the percentages, and you can see that there seems to be a better chance of getting screwed here, than on Ebay. so i would definitely like some protection. the bad trader list was one excellent form of both protection and prevention. bring it back.

Actually, I also have had only one bad transaction out of a few hundred when dealing with Boardgame purchases/sales on eBay. However, that ratio is significantly worse when eBay'ing books, movies, furniture, etc. I am not sure why that is. Perhaps it is the byproduct of being a "niche". And I have no had any problems yet here on BGG.

But my original point was questioning how eBay avoids or deflects legal threats like we saw here on BGG. I realize that Square Trade handles a lot of the "small stuff", but you will occasionally hear stories about massive litigation by a party because their livelihood has been threatened as a result of unwarrented negative feedback on eBay. Is there anyone on this site that has that sort of investment in their dealings here?

What really bugs me is that the ENTIRE bad trader's list had to disappear. The best solution would have been to remove only the geeklist entry containing the problem trade and ban him from the site.

Problem solved. Community awareness intact.

From my personal standpoint: although I have become more of a buyer/seller as of late, you can look and see the number of documented trades (purchases and sales, as well) I have from this site. Some of this was done without the safety net of the bad traders list, i.e. before it was created. However, the fact that the popoulation of new site members is growing and the massive loophole in the trade feedback system has been publicly broadcasted, I am becoming less likely to participate with trades until some protection can be enforced.
 
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M. Shanmugasundaram
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Drew1365 wrote:
Well, I haven't been screwed here yet, and plan to continue trading. I don't think we can hold BGG responsible for bad traders. I don't think it's fair to even suggest that.


If you ever do get screwed on a trade here, please let us know if your attitude changes.

Yes, absolutely, trades are user-user, and BGG doesn't take a cut (unlike the Marketplace). However, even the Marketplace (as far as I'm able to tell), is a voluntary donation of 3% of the purchase price. I'm not sure if or how BGG enforces this "commission."

My assertion is that they've established a system that helps people LOCATE other potential traders, COORDINATE the details of a trade, SIMPLIFY communication essential for trading (e.g., package tracking), and LOG feedback on trade outcomes.

Not only does this system exist, but it's flawed and corruptible. It ENABLES bad traders to continue their behavior.

There's only two real answers:

1) Fix the system (or create a better system).
2) Drop the system. Send us back to straight PM-, forum- and geeklist-based trade initiation and communications.

I don't see another way right now.
 
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Richard Pardoe
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rumble wrote:
However, even the Marketplace (as far as I'm able to tell), is a voluntary donation of 3% of the purchase price. I'm not sure if or how BGG enforces this "commission."


When you sell an object, 3% of the purchase price is added to an "amount owed BGG" summarhy in your Marketplace. To avoid lots of PayPal processing fees, BGG does request that you pay only when you owe more than $2.

If you do owe more than $2, you will get a reminder note at the beginning of the next month that you need to pay BGG. True you could ignore that request...but I don't see anything voluntary about it. The 3% is part of the terms and conditions for using the BGG marketplace.

....We now return to the regularly scheduled trade discussion.
 
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Drew1365 wrote:
I don't think we can hold BGG responsible for bad traders.


If you want to pursue that route you can because by explicitly removing the attempt by members to self-govern the system, you might be able to show that BGG is actively encouraging the behaviour. Unless BGG takes at least minimal action to prevent the bad guys from stealing from other users, they could easily be held liable for damages.

Here's the problem though (beyond suing the hand that feeds you trades), BGG may be found liable for the cost of the stolen game(s), whereas by keeping the bad trader list active they may be found liable for much MUCH more than that. No one is going to sue BGG for even a couple hundred bucks of trade loss, but they might for thousands, especially if they want to try and prove that it hurt their job prospects and/or more.
 
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In lieu of a blacklist, perhaps require every item added to Math Trade also include a link to the trader's feedback screen.

It might discourage deadbeat traders from posting if their history is right out there on every item. Just an idea to throw out there.
 
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Ken B.
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Drew1365 wrote:
dr glaze et al wrote:
In lieu of a blacklist, perhaps require every item added to Math Trade also include a link to the trader's feedback screen.


Well, a link is pretty much always there, if one cares to follow it. Though it requires two clicks instead of one.



It has already been established that the feedback system is flawed. Until both parties leave feedback, neither is visible. Therefore those who fear retribution for leaving honest feedback often don't--or face getting branded a "bad trader" by the very bad trader himself!


Because of the suspension of the bad trader list, I've pretty much put all my trading on hiatus. Since I've had so many good trades I feel I'm due a bad one--so why risk it? Get out while I'm ahead.
 
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franklincobb wrote:


Because of the suspension of the bad trader list, I've pretty much put all my trading on hiatus. Since I've had so many good trades I feel I'm due a bad one--so why risk it? Get out while I'm ahead.


Gambler's fallacy

Addressing this issue is something on the to-do list. However do note that the to-do list is long (as it always is) and won't be looked at until after BGG.Con.

As usual, if anyone does experience problems with a trade or purchase please contact an admin as soon as possible and we'll see what we can do to resolve the issue.

-MMM
 
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Tim Gilberg
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I'm sorry, but everyone's letting Aldie off way too easily here. His actions really are screwing over good traders to protect the bad.

But, this might be a situation where everyone just has to realize that BGG would rather see us get screwed and scammed than let us try to work together to avoid that.

While I wouldn't recommend switching to some other forum for trades, note the level of organization at Anandtech's trade forums. Here's a link to their "traders to avoid" list (Where in the heck did the link button go?): http://forums.anandtech.com/messageview.aspx?catid=45&thread...
I'm just comparing the actions of two communities here, but the comparison really doesn't favor BGG.

Perhaps we need to link up with the TrollHunters: http://www.trollhunters.com/. There may be a way to keep a deadbeat list as it relates to BGG through this third-party site.
 
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