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Subject: Hostile Takeover is absurdly inefficient rss

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Michael Redston
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Am I missing something here? You install it for a click (1C), advance it twice (4C, because you could have clicked for 2C instead of spending 2C) and then gain 7C and 1BP. So you're spending 5C and 3 clicks to gain 7C, not to mention the BP. True, you're getting 1 agenda point, but still. What's the point of this card? Feeding it to Archer?
 
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talism emrys
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you can score it from hand, gives you cash, and if you manage to over clock a atlantis, you can search it, and score it from hand to seal you game win if on 5-6 points
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Clayton Threadgill
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Any 2/1 agenda will cost you 3 clicks and 2 credits - that's the price for an agenda point that you can score out of hand. On top of that, you get 7 credits - that seems good enough to warrant a BP token.
 
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Nite Wolf
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Congrats for coming up with a new and even weirder way to calculate card cost. And I thought I saw all of them by now.

And yeah, gaining AP in one turn without needing any extra cards or ICE to protect is horrible.
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Roberta Yang
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kroen wrote:
Am I missing something here? You install it for a click (1C), advance it twice (4C, because you could have clicked for 2C instead of spending 2C) and then gain 7C and 1BP. So you're spending 5C and 3 clicks to gain 7C, not to mention the BP. True, you're getting 1 agenda point, but still. What's the point of this card? Feeding it to Archer?

Well, for a start, you're not spending 5C and 3 clicks, you're spending 2C and 3 clicks. You've double-counted - you're charging Hostile Takeover both directly for the clicks it costs and then a second time for the credits you could have gotten with those clicks. That's making the numbers look worse than they are - Hostile Takeover is still a more efficient source of credits than just clicking for them directly (setting aside the agenda point and the bad publicity for a moment).
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Anton R.
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kroen wrote:
Am I missing something here? You install it for a click (1C), advance it twice (4C, because you could have clicked for 2C instead of spending 2C) and then gain 7C and 1BP. So you're spending 5C and 3 clicks to gain 7C, not to mention the BP. True, you're getting 1 agenda point, but still. What's the point of this card? Feeding it to Archer?

1) you need to count click you draw it (also twice of course)
2) you install it for a click, but you could gain credit, so it is also 2C!
3) Don't forget to count click you fulfil your hand up to 5 after installing HT(it also could be used for a credit)
In total we spend 10C and get 1BP, 7C and 1 agenda point.
Of course it is bad card. Don't play it


BTW, poor-poor runners! Every draw, or run or smt else costs them 3C, cause they could use magnum or even Kati instead!
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Andrew
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salty53 wrote:
Well, for a start, you're not spending 5C and 3 clicks, you're spending 2C and 3 clicks. You've double-counted - you're charging Hostile Takeover both directly for the clicks it costs and then a second time for the credits you could have gotten with those clicks.
No, he is not double counting, it cost a click and a credit per advancement counter so each advancement counter effectively costs 2 credits each. (Or more depending on how you do your accounting) OP is right in saying it cost at least 5 to score, I don't see why people are questioning that? And mocking him is just rude.

However, OP, you are completely neglecting the best part of Hostile Takeover which is the agenda point. Most agendas cost money, HT is the only one that gains you money. (Well priority requisition and government contracts might gain you some money as well.) So how much is an agenda point worth? Well people are ecstatic to pay 4 to biotic labor just to score a 3/2 that does nothing so I would say an agenda point scored is worth at least 6 credits* to the corp. The real value is obviously even higher since.

*4 for biotic, 3 for clicks (not counting bonus click) and 3 to pay for advancement counters, so that is 10 "credits" and 2 cards spent to gain 2 agenda points.
 
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Michael Redston
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I take everything I said back (aside from the math). However, unless the second Hostile Takeover you score will win you the game, it would most likely lose you the game. 2 free credits per run is nothing to scoff at.
 
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Jon Day
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Go look at tournament winning Weyland Decklists.

They (nearly) all play 3 Hostile Takeovers. Must be bad!

My favourite use - to go from 5-7 agenda points in 2 turns with a double over-advanced project atlas.
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Roberta Yang
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AnSteWe wrote:
No, he is not double counting, it cost a click and a credit per advancement counter so each advancement counter effectively costs 2 credits each. (Or more depending on how you do your accounting) OP is right in saying it cost at least 5 to score, I don't see why people are questioning that? And mocking him is just rude.

The double-counting is when you say it costs 5 credits and 3 clicks. It costs 3 clicks (install, advance, advance) and 2 credits (to pay for the two advancements) to score. If you want to count it as 5 credits by treating clicks as credit-equivalent, then that's fine, but in that case you can't then count the clicks as a separate expense, since they've already been rolled in to the credit cost.

It's not a trivial difference. Spending 5 credits and 3 clicks to gain 7 credits is less efficient than just clicking for credits. Spending 2 credits and 3 clicks to gain 7 credits is more efficient than just clicking for credits.

I don't see how what I wrote is even remotely mocking.
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Michael Redston
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Strategy question, after we've established (and I agreed) that Hostile Takeover is good: When to score it? Only if it's the last point you need to win? (or 2-3 points if you have 2-3 Hostile Takeovers.) When you really need something to feed Archer with? is it even legit scoring it for the cash? and if so, what about the second one? Is it sometimes better to let the runner steal it rather then score it?
 
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Glen Doe
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As per what many have pointed out, you seriously need to check your math next time.

Point of the card?
1 turn scoring is always great. Allows you to apply early pressure. Allows you to close out close games.

If you had a agenda with no abilities, 1pt, 2 to score, would it be a useful card? Most people would say yes. So the question is whether attaching a additional 7 bucks for 1 BP for zero clicks, zero cards (the clicks, cards and cash can be attributed to the agenda) is worth it for you.

For me, it is. It adds a boost to your economy. Honestly, because of hostile takeover (and some other cards), weyland is arguably the best corp to forgo melange entirely. This saves a massive amount of clicks and makes your deck even faster.

Also, 1 BP is hardly a horrific thing. Even if running every turn using ice breakers (highly unlikely, especially in early game), it takes 7 runs through ice for the runner to catch up.

Lastly, as you point out. Rezzing Archer. Scoring hostile takeover in the first few turns has always had my opponents shivering in fear when approaching unrezzed ice. Often, they would delay running till they get expose or the necessary breaker/economy. This in turn makes it even harder for them to utilize the BP and catch up.

Long story short though, if your focused on walling up and scoring agendas slowly, hostile takeover might not be preferred for you, except to use as a easy last 1-2 agenda pts. But if your playing a faster game, there are few agendas youll rather have.
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Oscar Iglesias
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kroen wrote:
Strategy question, after we've established (and I agreed) that Hostile Takeover is good: When to score it? Only if it's the last point you need to win? (or 2-3 points if you have 2-3 Hostile Takeovers.) When you really need something to feed Archer with? is it even legit scoring it for the cash? and if so, what about the second one? Is it sometimes better to let the runner steal it rather then score it?


I try to score one as soon as possible, for the cash and for feeding the Archer. Both of them help my game a lot.
You get a burst of cash that is always helpful, and score an agenda point that is a morale advantage. Apart from this, you get some feed for the Archer, and can play with that fear in the runners mind

2nd and 3rd i reserve them for the winning points. When the runner get a full rig, even a armoured remote is no defense. Scoring in a turn is.
Unless im in dire need of more cash. So i score them.
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Andrew
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salty53 wrote:
AnSteWe wrote:
No, he is not double counting, it cost a click and a credit per advancement counter so each advancement counter effectively costs 2 credits each. (Or more depending on how you do your accounting) OP is right in saying it cost at least 5 to score, I don't see why people are questioning that? And mocking him is just rude.

The double-counting is when you say it costs 5 credits and 3 clicks.

...

I don't see how what I wrote is even remotely mocking.
Oh I missed that, yeah, he double counted. And you were perfectly fine, Anton R. who posted after you was the one mocking him, sorry I didn't make that clear.
 
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Anton R.
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I'm sorry if it seems rude. It's just a joke, nothing more.
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James Finkle
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One thing to consider is that a 2/1 Agenda is a very rare thing. Currently, there are only two in the game (the other being Breaking News), with one revealed upcoming (Clone Retirement). Neutral 1-point agendas are all (so far) 3/1's. The ability to score from hand without any outside assistance is very powerful. Honestly, a 2/1 agenda that gave you a bad publicity would almost be playable - the fact that this also refunds its advancement cost + 5 credits is a major boon.
 
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Michael Redston
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I wonder if we'll ever see 7/4 agendas.
 
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Gin Teki
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kroen wrote:
I wonder if we'll ever see 7/4 agendas.


Project Beale
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Justin
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Cheapos can also serve as "feeder" agendas: lay down an HT, do whatever. If they run and get through, immediately lay down a 3/2 that they can't afford to reach.
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Nate K
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As someone who plays NBN and Jinteki almost exclusively, I can highly appreciate the ability to score an Agenda while GAINING credits, instead of ending up with fewer credits. That's not something I can do very often. Although Corporate War has helped in my Replicating Perfection deck.
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Thomas R
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kurthl33t wrote:
As someone who plays NBN and Jinteki almost exclusively, I can highly appreciate the ability to score an Agenda while GAINING credits, instead of ending up with fewer credits. That's not something I can do very often. Although Corporate War has helped in my Replicating Perfection deck.


This. Very much this. What other people have said about turning on the ability to rez Archer, and about scoring from hand are important, but one of the most powerful things about Hostile Takeover is the tempo it provides.

Most of the time, when you score an agenda, you've partially exhausted yourself economically to do so. That means you have to spend time building your economy back up so that you can rez ice and deal with runner tricks and so on. Hostile Takeover is the only agenda currently guaranteed to leave you with more credits after you score it than you had before you scored it. Corporate War can do the same thing, but is a bit more circumstantial.

What this means is that you can score Hostile Takeover, and then on your next turn you can immediately install and start working on another agenda. Timed right, between the economic advantage and the activation of Archer, a single Hostile Takeover can fuel you through two or three additional points while the runner is still trying to find a way to get into your remote.
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Mara
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oh yeah, great idea, let's start including opportunity cost

wow, now we realize that scoring agendas is horrobly inefficient. what's the point of playing any of them? I think I'll pass and just keep playing econ the whole game through

no, of course agendas take resource investments

in this case, hostile takeover pays for itself and lets you rez and archer. what's there not to like? you just scored a point out of hand and made money.
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Lysander
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I agree Hostile Takeover is absurdly inefficient, but not for the reasons specified. Bad Publicity is extremely detrimental, and should be avoided early game at all costs.

For any that might disagree, consider the prevalence of Desperado. Each time you score HT you're giving the runner a console.
 
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Doctor Awkward
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Lysander1 wrote:
I agree Hostile Takeover is absurdly inefficient, but not for the reasons specified. Bad Publicity is extremely detrimental, and should be avoided early game at all costs.

For any that might disagree, consider the prevalence of Desperado. Each time you score HT you're giving the runner a console.


Wha? I get that bad publicity is detrimental right off the bat, but the massive surge in tempo from an early HT score can enable you to grab better protection earlier than you could have gotten otherwise by giving you credits and allowing you to rez archer. In a vacuum it sucks, but so does everything in netrunner.

And BP = Desperado seems really strange. BP is a credit you can only use during the run, and you don't get to keep it when the run is over. Desperado only gives you a credit when the run becomes successful. I guess they're the same in that you can use the credit to trash stuff in either case, but any proper Weyland deck is running a Transaction-based economy and doesn't have much to fear from assets and upgrades being trashed. Desperado is popular because it rewards you for doing what you should be doing anyway, which is running instead of building. The other consoles seem to emphasize the building approach.
 
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Sebastian Barth
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Dr_Awkward wrote:
And BP = Desperado seems really strange.

Why strange? Bad Publicity is precisely a non-unique Desperado you give the runner without the memory
 
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