Sam Mercer
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Heya all, I've been on bgg hiatus for a while and thought I better get back into trying to help some of you guys out, as per the previous thread, I would like to start up another fix thread.

So EVERYONE is producing games. That's great. Boardgames are cool. If you don't believe me, take it up with Mr. Emu on the left there.

Have you got a cool game with a great theme that you developed for and were really excited about but ... it never really happened?

"There was something in the way "

"I couldn't get past this one bit..."

"I couldn't make it fun enough"

"I didn't like where it was going "

"It was too complicated"

"The theme needed changing"

"I JUST got bored of it...."




Well now we are going to fix that old dusty game of yours! Let us know these:

The game is called: (eg: Mega-Euro 3)
It's about: (eg: Farmers )
It's a little like: (eg: Catan )
The mechanics are: (eg: Worker placement and dice )
I got stuck because: (eg: I really didn't know how to create rules for the second player to keep the resources fair. )

And we will Fix your game!

n.b. This thread contain posts looking for help, and giving help. If you believe you can help - do it! There is no judging in this thread. Your game will always remain yours. We are only trying to help you with your game not "take over" it. Any tips to this thread will be very appreciated. If there is any specific advice that another member gives you, tip their thread and thumb them directly to show your thanks.
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Sturv Tafvherd
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Re: ITT: We fix the game that you were stuck with and stopped developing


The game is called: Netrunner of Catan (a.k.a. Log In E-Scape) [Mash-Up Contest] -- Submitted

It's about: Hacking into a big Corporation network

It's a little like: Netrunner and Catan, mashed together

The mechanics are:
-- Resource management, ala Catan
-- Assymetric player actions, ala Netrunner
-- Area Control / Expansion, ala Catan
-- Build-up / Upgrades, ala Netrunner

I got stuck because: I need more feedback! I think I'm way too close to this game, and also way too close to the two "parent" games; I'm probably suffering a lot of "I can't prune this baby" because of that.
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Sturv Tafvherd
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Re: ITT: We fix the game that you were stuck with and stopped developing


The game is called: Duel for an Empire! (WIP- Hidden Roles)

It's about: Hidden Roles / Teams ... Kill the Emperor

It's a little like: Bang!

The mechanics are:
-- Hidden Roles / Teams, ala Bang
-- semi-Trick-taking, ala Great Dalmuti

I got stuck because: I'm torn about non-player elimination. The original design had player elimination; I put in a last minute change to have non-elimination to fit into a contest requirement. That part is not thoroughly tested, but I'm enjoying the twist it adds to the game. However, a part of me is saying that I'm needlessly prolonging the game; without player elimination, the game plays extremely fast and allows for more replays (which allows for players to experience other roles ... and that's part of the fun).
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Chad Mestdagh
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Re: ITT: We fix the game that you were stuck with and stopped developing
The game is called: The Fate of Ishandor



It's about: Building up a leader for an army in a fantasy world setting. You start off with a character with a few small abilities and the ability to influence a small amount of people. You then go out into the world and tackle monsters, hire people to fight for you, build up an army, and then finally tackle a mighty dragon at the end.


It's a little like: a few other pnp games such as Capone says and Lord of the Rings: The Adventure Deck Game


The mechanics are: cube dropping, exploration, and engine building.

I got stuck because: MATH! I can't figure out the math to make the game challenging and balanced. The mechanics work great. But the game is just simply to easy. I can't figure out what the spells should cost vs. what it should cost to hire a mercenary. I can't figure out how much HP the second level enemies need to cost. I can't figure out how much HP the final boss should have.
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Chad Mestdagh
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Re: ITT: We fix the game that you were stuck with and stopped developing
Stormtower wrote:


Here is a solitaire game that I didn't know about!
Please, help him finish this game!!!!
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Re: ITT: We fix the game that you were stuck with and stopped developing
Netrunner of Catan

Stormtower wrote:
I got stuck because: I need more feedback! I think I'm way too close to this game, and also way too close to the two "parent" games; I'm probably suffering a lot of "I can't prune this baby" because of that.


Dr. Sam's Diagnosis:

1. Your prototype is too shiny. By that I mean that picture you have displayed there - its too good to be worked on. You have already decided most of it.
2. Yes you are too close to this game. In your mind the game is already "done" enough to not change. You are too comfortable in your design.
3. The game needs playtesting. More feedback will give you more opportunity to change and build upon the game


Dr. Sam's Recommendation:

Recruit playtesters.
Have you got any game friends IRL that are able to come round? Offer them pizza and coke. Do remember though Sturv, that (I don't mean to offend) but, no one cares about your game. No one cares about anyones game (there are more than 62,000 games on BGG right now) so you have to do your best to make them care. Pay them for their time: suggest a playtest trade, invite them round to yours and feed them, out right pay them with dollars, or pay them in GG. Once you have some more eyes on your game (serious, playtested, rules-read type eyes) then you will see what you need to do to your game. You are in the lucky position that the main part of your game is two player - in which case you only need 1 person to playtest with you. Have you got a flgs near you or similar? If so - ask there. Be brave, suck it up, and say "Hi my name is Sturv, I made a game, would you like to playtest? I will give you 2 cans of diet coke to help your decision "

1. Find a playtester
2. Pay him somehow (time, food, money, friendhsip, playtest trade etc)
3. Change your game from feedback
4. Report back here.
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Re: ITT: We fix the game that you were stuck with and stopped developing
Duel for an Empire! (WIP- Hidden Roles)

Stormtower wrote:
I got stuck because: I'm torn about non-player elimination. The original design had player elimination; I put in a last minute change to have non-elimination to fit into a contest requirement. That part is not thoroughly tested, but I'm enjoying the twist it adds to the game. However, a part of me is saying that I'm needlessly prolonging the game; without player elimination, the game plays extremely fast and allows for more replays (which allows for players to experience other roles ... and that's part of the fun).


Dr. Sam's Diagnosis:

You want the game to be two things. Both to fit in the hidden role contest and as a game that you like seperately. You are cut between two options that both seem viable and are worried which one to take.

Dr. Sam's Reccomendation:

1. Pick a side. You have two options. You do not know which to choose. Pick one, and stick to that one. If, later on, it doesn't work out - revert and try the other one. You will never get anywhere if you just umm and ahh forever. Imagine going to the DIY store, you need to buy a new scroll-saw (mmm, carpentary) there are two options you can't choose between. Do you get the Mega-Splinter X2 or do you get the Blade-Master 2300 ? Your fence at home is still unmade. It's still waiting for a scroll saw. What scroll saw? The choice is (nearly) irrelevant. You need to make a choice. Whatever the choice is will define your game but you need definition to continue. flip a coin if need be, but try not to let yourself get stuck behind a binary choice. Choose one. Do it.

2. If you still can't decide, then you need to do one thing and do it well. a.k.a. Reaffirm your motif. Think to yourself "what is my game really about, what is the core of the game", "What choice suits the goal of my game the most" .
Quote:
. . The eldest of the Emperor's two sons has hired a small gang of Assassins to break into the Emperor’s bedchambers and kill the Emperor. However, the Emperor is awake, and fights for his life!

. . Fortunately for him, one of the gang is the Emperor's younger son; unfortunately, the Junior Heir wants the crown for his own. His plan is to defeat the Assassins first, then kill his father; then he can expose his elder brother's plot, and seize the thrown as the only loyal son of the dead Emperor.


In the game I have just described, would the emperor kill someone if he found out they were trying to assassinate him?

Another nice point here Sturv; whatever you choose WILL be the right answer, because it will be your choice. There will never be anyone (other than you) so as long a you make a choice, it will be the right one.
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Re: ITT: We fix the game that you were stuck with and stopped developing
Ah, so by "fix your game", you meant "offer advice", not "take over the project and do all the work for you." That makes more sense.
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Sam Mercer
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Re: ITT: We fix the game that you were stuck with and stopped developing
Antistone wrote:
Ah, so by "fix your game", you meant "offer advice", not "take over the project and do all the work for you." That makes more sense.


Yes indeed Jeremy, sorry if I came across any other way - the game is (and will be) 100% yours, but from first hand I know how many games get "stuck" in a rut. A thread like this tends to help inspire people who have problems, to ask for help in solving them - and people that can help, to help as best they can.
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Re: ITT: We fix the game that you were stuck with and stopped developing
I'd maybe talk about my Aeon of Strife / League of Legends type game and ask for feedback, but I'm super busy working on a video game for money. Love the idea though and hope it works out for people! =)
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Re: ITT: We fix the game that you were stuck with and stopped developing
The Fate of Ishandor

radchad wrote:
I got stuck because: MATH! I can't figure out the math to make the game challenging and balanced. The mechanics work great. But the game is just simply to easy. I can't figure out what the spells should cost vs. what it should cost to hire a mercenary. I can't figure out how much HP the second level enemies need to cost. I can't figure out how much HP the final boss should have.


Dr Sam's Diagnosis:

There doesn't seem to be much wrong here other than some final tweaks. The game is good. The drop mechanism is really cool. Some of the cards seem super fun. As a whole - this game looks good. But it looks like your quest is against "Math" not against your "game". By "math" what do you mean? Let's see: cards do not have low denominators. They are not "1HP, 6HP" they are "60HP" and "75HP" and in fact, they have different numebers for the drop and the no-drop variant. Numbers numbers, and high numbers everywhere. High numbers mean that you inherently put a lot of numeric (and equative) work into the game. This is not a good thing. You prostrate yourself to Mathematics, percentages, and chance (to two decimal points). Let's say this another way "In my co-op game, you have a 51% chance of survival, should I change it to 52% ??"
The answer is: no one cares. If the game is fun: percentages and mathematics don't matter. This level of specific maths are as good as irrelevant once it gets past a specific degree.


Dr Sam's Diagnosis:

Don't worry (for now) about any number smaller than 10. If the game is to easy? - Add 10hp to every monster collectively. See what happens.
Increase the mana cost of all spells by 1. Increase the gold cost of all hireable mercenaries by 1. Be careful with "times two" and "double" - remember that additions scale linearly, multiplactions scale much faster. eg: having something that will "double your X" is much harder to code for than something that says "gain +5 X".
Really good an exciting games come from the fear of loss (loss aversion) mixed with the triumph of success. Especially this kind of single player game, if you can I would set the difficulty bar to "win one out of 3 times" or even "win one out of 4 times". The best way to explain this: If I am more likely than not to win (+50%) I will play the game once, then feel like I have grokked it and mastered your game. If I am more likely to lose, then I am much more likely to play your game many times. This will be fun for me, as a playtester and also give me the required in-depth knowledge to feedback to YOU "mercenaries are too powerful" (eg: all my soldiers are x2 to the amount of weapons they can wield / doubling my food supply / adding 1 to the damage of my soldiers).

To Sum:
Spreadsheets and graphs are best worked out with Maths. Games are best worked out with playtesting. Don't worry about Math so much that it is taking you away from gameplay. You're on the right path man, keep the overall game success one-in-three or lower, and start fishing for playtesters
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Rick Koeppen
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Re: ITT: We fix the game that you were stuck with and stopped developing
Antistone wrote:
Ah, so by "fix your game", you meant "offer advice", not "take over the project and do all the work for you." That makes more sense.



Damn, I was hoping I could provide a basic framework of a dream game I would love to see designed, plug it in here, and have a great finished game come out of the other end.

The true purpose of this thread is nice too, I suppose.
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Sturv Tafvherd
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Re: ITT: We fix the game that you were stuck with and stopped developing
Cogentesque wrote:
Netrunner of Catan

Stormtower wrote:
I got stuck because: I need more feedback! I think I'm way too close to this game, and also way too close to the two "parent" games; I'm probably suffering a lot of "I can't prune this baby" because of that.


Dr. Sam's Diagnosis:

1. Your prototype is too shiny. By that I mean that picture you have displayed there - its too good to be worked on. You have already decided most of it.
2. Yes you are too close to this game. In your mind the game is already "done" enough to not change. You are too comfortable in your design.
3. The game needs playtesting. More feedback will give you more opportunity to change and build upon the game


Dr. Sam's Recommendation:

Recruit playtesters.
Have you got any game friends IRL that are able to come round? Offer them pizza and coke. Do remember though Sturv, that (I don't mean to offend) but, no one cares about your game. No one cares about anyones game (there are more than 62,000 games on BGG right now) so you have to do your best to make them care. Pay them for their time: suggest a playtest trade, invite them round to yours and feed them, out right pay them with dollars, or pay them in GG. Once you have some more eyes on your game (serious, playtested, rules-read type eyes) then you will see what you need to do to your game. You are in the lucky position that the main part of your game is two player - in which case you only need 1 person to playtest with you. Have you got a flgs near you or similar? If so - ask there. Be brave, suck it up, and say "Hi my name is Sturv, I made a game, would you like to playtest? I will give you 2 cans of diet coke to help your decision "

1. Find a playtester
2. Pay him somehow (time, food, money, friendhsip, playtest trade etc)
3. Change your game from feedback
4. Report back here.


Definitely agree with you. I've mentioned that I definitely feel that I need more feedback.

I guess the hard part is that I've got a somewhat component-heavy game; I'm not used to carting that around ... and my household has a 2-year-old who is likely to find whatever table or box I'm keeping the prototype on. I'm a bit more comfortable with playtesting my card games, I guess.

Anyway ... looks like I'll have to go and get someone like Andrew Tullsen or TheGameCrafter to make a few copies of this prototype for me. I won't be able to hand-craft it myself the way I've done for past games. Once I get a couple prototypes in hand, I'll start handing them out to get playtested.

Thanks, Sam!
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Sturv Tafvherd
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Re: ITT: We fix the game that you were stuck with and stopped developing
Cogentesque wrote:
Duel for an Empire! (WIP- Hidden Roles)

Stormtower wrote:
I got stuck because: I'm torn about non-player elimination. The original design had player elimination; I put in a last minute change to have non-elimination to fit into a contest requirement. That part is not thoroughly tested, but I'm enjoying the twist it adds to the game. However, a part of me is saying that I'm needlessly prolonging the game; without player elimination, the game plays extremely fast and allows for more replays (which allows for players to experience other roles ... and that's part of the fun).


Dr. Sam's Diagnosis:

You want the game to be two things. Both to fit in the hidden role contest and as a game that you like seperately. You are cut between two options that both seem viable and are worried which one to take.

Dr. Sam's Reccomendation:

1. Pick a side. You have two options. You do not know which to choose. Pick one, and stick to that one. If, later on, it doesn't work out - revert and try the other one. You will never get anywhere if you just umm and ahh forever. Imagine going to the DIY store, you need to buy a new scroll-saw (mmm, carpentary) there are two options you can't choose between. Do you get the Mega-Splinter X2 or do you get the Blade-Master 2300 ? Your fence at home is still unmade. It's still waiting for a scroll saw. What scroll saw? The choice is (nearly) irrelevant. You need to make a choice. Whatever the choice is will define your game but you need definition to continue. flip a coin if need be, but try not to let yourself get stuck behind a binary choice. Choose one. Do it.

2. If you still can't decide, then you need to do one thing and do it well. a.k.a. Reaffirm your motif. Think to yourself "what is my game really about, what is the core of the game", "What choice suits the goal of my game the most" .
Quote:
. . The eldest of the Emperor's two sons has hired a small gang of Assassins to break into the Emperor’s bedchambers and kill the Emperor. However, the Emperor is awake, and fights for his life!

. . Fortunately for him, one of the gang is the Emperor's younger son; unfortunately, the Junior Heir wants the crown for his own. His plan is to defeat the Assassins first, then kill his father; then he can expose his elder brother's plot, and seize the thrown as the only loyal son of the dead Emperor.


In the game I have just described, would the emperor kill someone if he found out they were trying to assassinate him?

Another nice point here Sturv; whatever you choose WILL be the right answer, because it will be your choice. There will never be anyone (other than you) so as long a you make a choice, it will be the right one.


You're exactly right. I got stuck because I didn't reaffirm my motif!

It's a Duel for an Empire!

It's not "Oh, one of you might be my son or my dear bodyguard ... so I'll pull my sword-slashes and just inflict flesh wounds."

No No No ... that's for wussies who want No-Player-Elimination. (Hey, I'm not saying that No-Player-Elimination is bad ... but it doesn't belong in this game)

That said, I've already been playtesting the latest "Balls-to-the-Wall" version of the game over the past two days. So pick up your sword and fight like a man!

Thanks, Sam!
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Sam Mercer
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Re: ITT: We fix the game that you were stuck with and stopped developing - Edit: we need more entries!
Super, glad to help Sturv , now I have helped you out - you need to pay me. I will take payment by: you helping me diagnose and offer solutions to other people who post in this thread!
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Sturv Tafvherd
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heh heh ... I was going to avoid doing that, since I was treating this as "Sam's Triage Room." But ... since you invited me ...
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radchad wrote:
The game is called: The Fate of Ishandor
...
I got stuck because: MATH! I can't figure out the math to make the game challenging and balanced. The mechanics work great. But the game is just simply to easy. I can't figure out what the spells should cost vs. what it should cost to hire a mercenary. I can't figure out how much HP the second level enemies need to cost. I can't figure out how much HP the final boss should have.


Huzzah, a Solitaire game!

I faced similar problems when I was developing my Mice'n'Men games. I want the game to be challenging ... because the best way to engage a solitaire player is to challenge them.

But, like Sam said, you still have to make it fun. Getting too engaged in the math and the probabilities of success will not make it fun.

Here's the thing: as the game designer, you will kinda care about the probabilities. You need to know if the challenges you are presenting really are challenging. But, Sam's right ... you don't need to worry about the differences between 51% and 52%.

I'm mostly agreeing with Sam's suggestion, and I'll try to rephrase the things he said.

When I was designing roleplaying-like games, I set the following difficulty levels:

95% chance of success = Trivial
75% chance of success = Easy
50% chance of success = "Regular"
25% chance of success = Difficult
15% chance of success = Hard
5% chance of success = Really Hard

You may want to figure out your own range of values for each aspect of your game.

In my case, I wanted early or foundational challenges to be Easy. Your Bard's haggling with a Merchant to get basic equipment ... that should be easy.

Things that help develop the early plotline tend to be Regular difficulty. Your Bard might really, really need to beat a certain madman outside town to get to the next part of the game. I usually set that to Regular difficulty, assuming the Bard has nothing else.

But if the Bard had bought basic equipment, the bonuses from that can make it easier ... and that's just fine, because he had to succeed at an earlier test. Two Easy Successes (75% * 75%) is close enough to be equivalent to a single Regular Success (50%)

And that's pretty much how later-and-harder challenges get adjusted. I just followed the general guideline I had set when I picked out the ranges.

A Difficult Success (25%) should be equivalent to two Regular Success (50% * 50%); or equivalent to five Easy Success (75% ^ 5)

A Really Hard Success (5%) should be equivalent to two Difficult Success (25% * 25%)


....
Now, here's the hard part. You will be solo-playtesting this game. And you will not know the real level of "fun" in it because you've had to do all the hard work of figuring out all these probabilities. The designer voice in you will be shouting all the Expected Values for each difficulty level.

Which leads me to what Sam was saying: start fishing for playtesters.

And frankly, you'll constantly need new ones. The ones who helped you develop the game will already know the difficulty levels and how to make things easier for themselves by managing their risk levels. What you will need are players who are still trying to figure out how risky each option is

-- and if they push their comfort zone hard enough and enjoy the thrill, that's when you know you've found a good amount of balance between Difficulty and Fun.
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Isaac Shalev
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Stormtower wrote:


The game is called: Duel for an Empire! (WIP- Hidden Roles)

It's about: Hidden Roles / Teams ... Kill the Emperor

It's a little like: Bang!

The mechanics are:
-- Hidden Roles / Teams, ala Bang
-- semi-Trick-taking, ala Great Dalmuti

I got stuck because: I'm torn about non-player elimination. The original design had player elimination; I put in a last minute change to have non-elimination to fit into a contest requirement. That part is not thoroughly tested, but I'm enjoying the twist it adds to the game. However, a part of me is saying that I'm needlessly prolonging the game; without player elimination, the game plays extremely fast and allows for more replays (which allows for players to experience other roles ... and that's part of the fun).


Your game isn't stuck, you are! As a designer, I think you have to make a decision about what kind of game YOU want to make. If fast-playing player-elimination is what you want, then go for it. Who cares what some contest is looking for?
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Isaac Shalev
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radchad wrote:
The game is called: The Fate of Ishandor



It's about: Building up a leader for an army in a fantasy world setting. You start off with a character with a few small abilities and the ability to influence a small amount of people. You then go out into the world and tackle monsters, hire people to fight for you, build up an army, and then finally tackle a mighty dragon at the end.


It's a little like: a few other pnp games such as Capone says and Lord of the Rings: The Adventure Deck Game


The mechanics are: cube dropping, exploration, and engine building.

I got stuck because: MATH! I can't figure out the math to make the game challenging and balanced. The mechanics work great. But the game is just simply to easy. I can't figure out what the spells should cost vs. what it should cost to hire a mercenary. I can't figure out how much HP the second level enemies need to cost. I can't figure out how much HP the final boss should have.


Two thoughts for you.

1 - Try to find a common deonminator - find some abilities/allies/spells that you think are about equally powerful and assign them the same cost. Then use that as your baseline for the other costs.

2 - When tuning values, don't increase things by 1 or 2, says Knizia. Double them or halve them. That will teach you much more about the relationship between the pieces of your game, and you'll find the right balance much faster.
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Derek H
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This whole thread needs to be posted somewhere in the "Hall Of Real Gamers"!
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The game is called: Rebellion
It's about: a rebellion in a third-world country
It's a little like: Resistance, I suppose, but more involved
The mechanics are: Playing cards to execute actions, and further each player's open and hidden agendas

I got stuck because: my plan is to have the hidden role/agenda cards stacked face-down, and have each player randomly draw one at the beginning of the game, along with that role's action cards. So each player will have an open role (Dictator, Rebel Leader, Aid Worker, etc.), and each player will have a hidden role or secret, which can gain them extra VPs as long as nobody correctly guesses their secret. Which brings me to my dilemma:

Each Secret will have 2-3 Action cards associated with it, and I'm struggling with how a player can use these, then return them to their hand without everyone else knowing who played a particular card. The basic mechanic involves each player playing one card face-down each turn, then the played cards are shuffled, revealed and enacted.

One Secret is a pharma company paying the player 1 VP each time they successfully slip an experimental drug into the Refugee Camp instead of the normal medicine. So the Action card could be played when the real medicine arrives in the Port location (the result of a semi-random draw or another player's action) to swap the medicine with the drug before it moves to the Refugee Camp location. But since this can be countered, perhaps by the Dictator confiscating goods in the Port that turn, I can't figure out how to get that played "swap the medicine" card back into a certain player's hand without giving that player's Secret away.

Right now, my only solution is to have 3 "swap the medicine" cards, and once used, they're gone, whether successful or not. So...help! Please.
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Sturv Tafvherd
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bird94us wrote:
The game is called: Rebellion
...
I got stuck because: my plan is to have the hidden role/agenda cards stacked ... And ...
Each Secret will have 2-3 Action cards (also secret) associated with it,
....


I'm not entirely sure how much guidance I can give you without directly giving you a mechanic. Dr. Sam's advice is typically more along the lines of "coaching" instead of "partnering".

That said, I'm not Dr. Sam.

**takes off the coach cap, puts on the designer cap**

Ok, here's how I would design the fog-of-secrets ... for lack of a better term.

Each role/agenda will have the same number of secret action cards. For some role/agenda, this may mean that a few of their cards are blanks. (Edit to add: or they get an additional helping of generic actions, which I explained further below)


At setup, you'll have one separate pile of cards for each role/agenda, that pile will contain their role/agenda, and their secret action cards. Put them in little envelopes, if that makes it easier. Each player gets a random envelope.

During each round, each player plays one of their secret action cards, as you've described. And things are resolved, as you described.

Now those secret cards need to go back to their owners ... And here's how I think it will work:

-- shuffle the cards, and divide into two piles.
-- send 1 pile around the table clockwise; send the other pile around the table counter-clockwise, simultaneously.
-- each player takes only his card, if any, and passes the pile along. He is not required to take his card
-- once both piles have made it around, any cards left in those piles are out of the game, without revealing what they were.

Now, the fun part with this mechanic is that you have some additional information to help you deduce each player's role.


Personally, I would also add some "generic actions" to each player's selection of action cards. These generic actions are added both to the initial setup-envelopes, and they are also used to fill up the two piles being passed around the table at the end of the round. That gives players the opportunity to "disguise" what card they did/didn't pick.
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Craig C
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Thanks, Sturv. I like that idea. I might even go with shuffling and redistributing every second or third turn, so there'll be more cards in the pile and it'll be tougher for players to deduce who picked up which cards.

Plus having it only occur every 2-3 turns will increase the decision-making, since players with only one of a particular card won't be able to use it repeatedly. Although in that case, players would need to potentially pick up more than one card each, which could be OK.

And yes, there will be non-secret actions that are specific to the open roles as well, to help disguise who played which cards. So each turn, some players will play their "open role" cards and some will play their "secret role" cards, depending on their plan for overall victory.

Thanks for the guidance!
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Sturv Tafvherd
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bird94us wrote:
Thanks, Sturv. I like that idea. I might even go with shuffling and redistributing every second or third turn, so there'll be more cards in the pile and it'll be tougher for players to deduce who picked up which cards....

And yes, there will be non-secret actions that are specific to the open roles as well, to help disguise who played which cards.


Nice! I didn't even think about doing it every 2nd or 3rd turn. That will definitely help.


By the way, that idea I presented is something I recycled from an older thread concerning a similar idea. I can't figure out what that older thread was ... when I do, I'll post a link.
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Craig C
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Please do post that link. Thanks.
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