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Subject: Why was Engineering the Future designed the way it was designed? rss

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Michael Redston
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Wasn't it obvious it was overpowered? It clearly outclasses every other corp ID. True, in certain decks some other ID effects are better, but unlike them it's never not good.

Let's look at the other IDs:
-Building a Better World is awful if you don't have at least 6 transactions, and preferably 9 plus.
-Making News is awful if you don't have many tracers and tag punishments.
-Personal Evolution is pretty bad if only have 7 agendas.
-Stronger Together is pretty bad if you don't have tons of bioroid ice.
-Replicating Perfection is bad if you're fast advancing and barely building remote servers.
-Because We Build it is awful if you don't have lots of advanceable ice.
-The World is Yours is awful if you don't have a tight combo deck that doesn't suffer much from the lack of influence.
-Custom Biotics is awful if you intend to include Jinteki cards.

Engineering the Future, on the other hand, is always, always good. The only reason I can think of why this ID was made so good was that maybe Haas-Bioroid had weak cards in only the core set. I don't know if that's true, as I only recently begun playing, but even if it is it seems like narrow thinking with barely if at all forward thinking.

I'd like to hear your opinions on why I'm way off base here.
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Anton R.
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I think if you want to play Tag n Bag it is still bad.
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Michael Redston
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gozik wrote:
I think if you want to play Tag n Bag it is still bad.

I'm not so sure about that, I think it's conceivable to build a T&B deck using this ID, but even if it isn't it's still better in more cases than the other IDs.
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Daniel B
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EtF is awful if you want to run Astroscripts
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Michael Norman
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It's not good if you want to play 3 of the 4 corps...

You can't call the other identities bad because they are bad if you ignore what they are meant to do. EtF is the most straightforward (and probably the best I'll agree) but all of them can work you if build the right type of deck. Other effects are more powerful and more situational which seems like a fair trade.
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Lluluien
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I don't think you're off-base. I think if the Runner/Corp balance was a little closer, HB:EtF would be considered the most unbalanced card in the game. It doesn't get brought up often in that light because the focus is typically on the cards on the Runner side that are factoring into the Runner/Corp disparity, but I personally believe that HB:EtF is just as ridiculous as Account Siphon is.
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Scott Hartman
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i would add that EtF is good but its hardly broken. What is essentially one a credit a turn income is nice but it doesn't give you anything to work with for what to put in your deck. Basically just money is good but all of the other identities give you an immediate direction for deck building.

Also you cannot compare identities across factions in a vacuum. You have to consider the base cards and the additional cards that have come out for each. An HB deck is going to be different than Jinteki or NBN. Weyland and HB have similarities but its still different, applying different means with similar effect. Then again Weyland can be built very different than HB.

So if you are going to compare faction abilities, you have to consider the card set and what that ability means within those cards.

Until Eli came out the majority of people on these forums would agree that Stronger Together was weak because it lacked enough roids to be effective. Now that there is enough bioroid ice to cover every ice type and a range of costs Stronger Together is much stronger. When the 2.0 roids hit the table you will see a lot more Stronger Together decks.
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Chris Wood
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Or is Noise the most overpowered? Or Gabe? Or SanSan? Oh no wait it's Crypsis!
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Andrew Barrett
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shartma wrote:
i would add that EtF is good but its hardly broken. What is essentially one a credit a turn income is nice but it doesn't give you anything to work with for what to put in your deck. Basically just money is good but all of the other identities give you an immediate direction for deck building.

Also you cannot compare identities across factions in a vacuum. You have to consider the base cards and the additional cards that have come out for each. An HB deck is going to be different than Jinteki or NBN. Weyland and HB have similarities but its still different, applying different means with similar effect. Then again Weyland can be built very different than HB.

So if you are going to compare faction abilities, you have to consider the card set and what that ability means within those cards.

Until Eli came out the majority of people on these forums would agree that Stronger Together was weak because it lacked enough roids to be effective. Now that there is enough bioroid ice to cover every ice type and a range of costs Stronger Together is much stronger. When the 2.0 roids hit the table you will see a lot more Stronger Together decks.


The point is that, you don't need to build around it to get a benefit, meaning it has more flexibility to do things other corps can't do, meaning it's always good.

A runner ID that gives you 5 clicks per turn instead of 4 isn't reasonable at all.
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Allan Clements
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Well I still think people overate Engineering the Future. The IDs which involve credits are fairly similar, just EtF is the easiest to use.

It does force you to play a certain way though, install at least one card a turn, and avoid ending up not being able to install a card in any given turn.

I think as more IDs come out, we will see EtF less as raw credits won't be as useful as getting some permanent advantage over the runner. (there are so many ways to get credits now)

e.g. Stronger Together turns Viktor 1.0 into something that Yog can't walk through without support, no amount of money will give you that effect permanently.

It all depends on the deck of course.
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Max Way
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EtF only works on turns you use one of your three clicks to install something. It doesn't help you on turns when you have agendas on the table and are trying to advance them before the runner breaks in.

(I still agree EtF is still a solid and reliable ID)
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Scott Hartman
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Chill84 wrote:
shartma wrote:
i would add that EtF is good but its hardly broken. What is essentially one a credit a turn income is nice but it doesn't give you anything to work with for what to put in your deck. Basically just money is good but all of the other identities give you an immediate direction for deck building.

Also you cannot compare identities across factions in a vacuum. You have to consider the base cards and the additional cards that have come out for each. An HB deck is going to be different than Jinteki or NBN. Weyland and HB have similarities but its still different, applying different means with similar effect. Then again Weyland can be built very different than HB.

So if you are going to compare faction abilities, you have to consider the card set and what that ability means within those cards.

Until Eli came out the majority of people on these forums would agree that Stronger Together was weak because it lacked enough roids to be effective. Now that there is enough bioroid ice to cover every ice type and a range of costs Stronger Together is much stronger. When the 2.0 roids hit the table you will see a lot more Stronger Together decks.


The point is that, you don't need to build around it to get a benefit, meaning it has more flexibility to do things other corps can't do, meaning it's always good.

A runner ID that gives you 5 clicks per turn instead of 4 isn't reasonable at all.


But its not necessarily more flexible, you are still limited to what the card set is.
It just so happens that Weyland has several transaction operations. And NBN has a lot of ice that utilizes traces. And Jinteki has many small point agendas.

The card set determines the majority of what compromises you deck. The identity gives you a direction to go in deck building. HB:EtF doesn't do that, it just provides money. Which is on its own good but i would never say 1 buck a turn is overpowered.
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Lluluien
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Taloncarde wrote:
Or is Noise the most overpowered? Or Gabe? Or SanSan? Oh no wait it's Crypsis!


Before we get off on one of these tears again, there's a difference between saying the card is overpowered and saying it is unbalanced. I don't think HB:EtF is overpowered - I think the rest of the Corp identities are underpowered.

This entire community needs to get over this idea that we can't have a discussion about these things without having the same dogmatic trolling over and over. The same cards come up in the balance discussions for a reason. If you want to contribute your own assessment of why a card is not unbalanced, then please do so - well-reasoned discussion is always welcome here. This kind of post, however, is getting very tiresome.
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Tom Keaten
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A free, untrashable, no-click-needed Pad Campaign is pretty damn solid, no matter how you look at it. I really don't think any other ID comes close - possibly NBN:MN if you manage to run a single trace every single turn, but even then it's not helping you build up every aspect of your game, it's just helping you be a bit more effective in one corner of it.
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Scott Hartman
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Neksol wrote:
A free, untrashable, no-click-needed Pad Campaign is pretty damn solid, no matter how you look at it. I really don't think any other ID comes close - possibly NBN:MN if you manage to run a single trace every single turn, but even then it's not helping you build up every aspect of your game, it's just helping you be a bit more effective in one corner of it.


I don't think anyone is arguing that its not good. I'm saying its not overpowered and I don't believe its that much better than the other corp IDs.
Also, there is a click needed. Its not a free credit every turn, its a free credit when you install.
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joelseph
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I like BABW more than most I guess. It makes beanstalks into gambles without the drawback. With the splash transaction I think it's great.
 
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Tom Keaten
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shartma wrote:
Also, there is a click needed. Its not a free credit every turn, its a free credit when you install.
True - I was meaning for the install. Though I can probably count on one hand the number of times I've gone without installing something on my turn, and most of those were Mine turns... which are basically irrelevant in HB anyway.

I think we all mostly agree with Llulluien here in that this isn't exactly OVERpowered, it's just well beyond nearly every other ID given the economic-war nature of the vast majority of all matchups. When most discussions on this game are based around which ICE is better because of a single credit swing on a run, every single source of drip economy is a blessing, particularly when it's almost free.
 
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Adam Perry
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Neksol wrote:
A free, untrashable, no-click-needed Pad Campaign is pretty damn solid, no matter how you look at it. I really don't think any other ID comes close - possibly NBN:MN if you manage to run a single trace every single turn, but even then it's not helping you build up every aspect of your game, it's just helping you be a bit more effective in one corner of it.


EtF is not a free, untrashable, no-click-needed Pad Campaign. instead of installing something and gaining a credit, you could've just gain a credit. what ETF is:

A) a discount on big servers, or
B) a way to combine actions to sort of gain 4 actions on a corp turn.

The identity is obviously supposed to facilitate A on the surface, given the basic core set style gameplay that HB brought. In reality, it's B that ends up being the true advantage.

I am in the camp that EtF is usually way overblown. It's the most straightforward, it's the easiest to understand, it's the most generically useful. It's "the best" but other IDs are around the same level, with a few exceptions.
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General Norris
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Your examples all strike me as saying that Scorched Earth is a bad card because it doesn't work without tagging.

It's strictly true, but short-sighted.
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Thomas R
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Neksol wrote:
shartma wrote:
Also, there is a click needed. Its not a free credit every turn, its a free credit when you install.
True - I was meaning for the install. Though I can probably count on one hand the number of times I've gone without installing something on my turn, and most of those were Mine turns... which are basically irrelevant in HB anyway.


This is interesting, and, I think, somewhat telling regarding play style. While I definitely have "install every turn" decks, I've got at least two that I have decent success with in which I spend half the game taking turns that involve no installs. So while I won't argue that Engineering the Future isn't good, since it clearly is, I think just how good it is depends on play style and deck construction. When you play Engineering the Future, you're automatically encouraged to play a deck that installs regularly, so it's not actually a totally generic advantage.
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Lluluien
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anathomical wrote:
Neksol wrote:
shartma wrote:
Also, there is a click needed. Its not a free credit every turn, its a free credit when you install.
True - I was meaning for the install. Though I can probably count on one hand the number of times I've gone without installing something on my turn, and most of those were Mine turns... which are basically irrelevant in HB anyway.


This is interesting, and, I think, somewhat telling regarding play style. While I definitely have "install every turn" decks, I've got at least two that I have decent success with in which I spend half the game taking turns that involve no installs. So while I won't argue that Engineering the Future isn't good, since it clearly is, I think just how good it is depends on play style and deck construction. When you play Engineering the Future, you're automatically encouraged to play a deck that installs regularly, so it's not actually a totally generic advantage.


Even at getting this benefit only every other turn in the Corp game, it's hard to get more credits than this from the +1 credit on transaction operations Weyland ID, since you're still likely looking at 8-10 credits. It's not a strictly apples-to-apples comparison since you can make an argument that a 1-credit augmentation on a burst economy operation is the same on a turn where both IDs do the install + operation and better on turns where the Corp doesn't want to install. That said, I think the 4-5 more credits that HB:EtF is likely to get but not guaranteed to get is better in my opinion; that's the rez cost of a decent piece of ICE.

I honestly think the fact that there is no counter card for Corps against the HQ sabotage events (Siphon and Shutdown) is one reason HB:EtF is so good. There are plenty of Corp decks that only have to defend HQ because of those two cards, and I think FFG ought to print something that allows Corps to take advantage of this trait by countering sabotage. That's why I was super disappointed with NBN:TWIY. The +1 hand size encourages a playstyle for NBN that I already advocated back as much as 4 months ago (light defenses on HQ), but does nothing to address the fact that two of the most powerful Runner events in the game are activated by HQ runs.

When Corp decks can essentially "shut off" a central (maybe an upgrade that blocks sabotage events that's expensive to trash, for instance, or one that says "Runner must pay 1-2c as an additional cost per card accessed in R&D") the same way Runners can "activate" Archives as a threat and they're not forced to have 5 ICE installed before the game really gets started without risking losing the whole game to bad luck against an early Siphon, Sneakdoor, or Indexing, then HB:EtF's ability won't be as useful.
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Billy Martin
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gozik wrote:
I think if you want to play Tag n Bag it is still bad.


Deebs wrote:
EtF is awful if you want to run Astroscripts


Kamakaze wrote:
Well I still think people overate Engineering the Future. The IDs which involve credits are fairly similar, just EtF is the easiest to use.


mjnorman90 wrote:
It's not good if you want to play 3 of the 4 corps...


If EtF were available to all the other factions I think it's pretty much the only corp ID you'd ever see. It's clearly way better than any other IDs. It's only "drawback" is that you have to play HB.

In core I just figured HB was just the corp of great identities. Like Weyland had the best ice, and NBN had the best agendas. But with Genesis, HB now has all the best corp economy cards. And they have one of the best sets of agendas (NBN is the only corp with better agendas, IMO). And they have Biotic Labor and Ash. Really the only weakness they have is their ice is a little lackluster, but they still have good stuff like Eli and Ichi.

But what's more odd than that is the new HB identities that we have seen. Stronger Together and Custom Biotics. These are not strong IDs at all. Stronger Together is okay. Maybe on par with Making News, but clearly not anything like EtF. Custom Biotics is pretty bad. So the question is, if playing HB, why would you play another ID other than EtF? It would be really lame if HB never got another ID that could compete.
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Lluluien
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jopejope wrote:
It would be really lame if HB never got another ID that could compete.


That's the thing I dislike most about it, and that's a great example of what I said in another thread about unbalanced cards being bad because of homogenizing deckbuilding decisions.

I've seen Stronger Together exactly zero times in the hundreds of games I've played. Zero. That's a problem.
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Micheal Keane
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Custom Biotics means you can run 3 Scorched Earth and 5 Data Ravens/SEA Sources. I think that's the only reason I'd use it at the moment but consistent (and possibly unexpected) Tag N Bag is a pretty good reason.
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Steven Tu
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lluluien wrote:
jopejope wrote:
It would be really lame if HB never got another ID that could compete.


That's the thing I dislike most about it, and that's a great example of what I said in another thread about unbalanced cards being bad because of homogenizing deckbuilding decisions.

I've seen Stronger Together exactly zero times in the hundreds of games I've played. Zero. That's a problem.


From what I've seen of ffg's balancing act on ANR, they have leaned towards

"new cards enabling older cards" (either in countering or in supporting)
over "new cards being better than older cards"

which I'm hoping to still be true for the likes of stronger together, deep thought, data dealer and co.
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