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Every time I introduce the game to a new group I run into a snag where people get confused on the difference between voting for who gets to go on the mission and voting on the mission itself.

"Wait, we vote twice?"
"So I get to vote even if I'm not on the mission?"

People can't seem to grasp that they get to vote during the first round, but not the second. I understand the rules completely, but I'm looking for help in creating some sort of analogy that would make understanding the difference easier. "Voting is like doing X, and voting in missions is like doing Y."

I guess a different term for the mission vote make things easier. Any ideas?
 
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David Morcerf
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Suggestion: Don't ever use the word "vote/voting" when explaining the rules to players to describe the Mission phase. Mission Team members do not vote on whether it succeeds or fails. They receive a Success card and a Fail card and then secretly play one and discard the other -- if they are a spy, they can choose whether to float by choosing success or to sabotage by choosing fail. It is not a vote: a single fail will sabotage the mission unless it is a mission requiring multiple fails. When you are a team member going on a mission, you are taking an action; not voting. Prior to sending a team, proposals of team members are made and voted on either approving of the proposed team or rejecting it.
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Everyone votes on if they want a mission to go ahead.
Everyone on the mission chooses whether to pass or fail the mission.

Don't use the word vote for the mission. That'll just going to create extra confusion.
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BobbySoFamous wrote:
Every time I introduce the game to a new group I run into a snag where people get confused on the difference between voting for who gets to go on the mission and voting on the mission itself.

"Wait, we vote twice?"
"So I get to vote even if I'm not on the mission?"

People can't seem to grasp that they get to vote during the first round, but not the second. I understand the rules completely, but I'm looking for help in creating some sort of analogy that would make understanding the difference easier. "Voting is like doing X, and voting in missions is like doing Y."

I guess a different term for the mission vote make things easier. Any ideas?

You can explain it as "for each mission proposal, every player votes to accept or reject the proposed mission. If the mission gets sent, the players on the mission submit their mission cards."

Differentiating between voting and playing mission cards is important.
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Start with the 3 missions that the resistance (or loyal servants) have to pass to win (as suggested above, use "mission pass" or "mission fail") and only then describe how you all decide which players go to the mission.
 
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These are good suggestions and I think I can take something from each of them.

****
The Resistance wins the game by successfully pulling off three missions. The Spies win by failing three missions. These can be in any order.

The people on the mission choose to either pass the mission or sabotage the mission. One sabotage fails the entire mission. Only people on the mission (people with guns) get to choose to pass or fail.

The Leader (initially randomly determined) chooses a team based on the number on the mission. Everybody votes whether they accept or reject this team. A majority of approvals is required to send the team on the mission; if it fails then the Leader token passes to the left and the new Leader selects a team. If a team fails to assemble after 5 consecutive votes, the Spies automatically win.
****

Any suggestions?
 
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Surely this is one of those cases where it's easy enough just to do a few sample rounds [ignoring who's who, rebel vs spy wise] to show how things work?
 
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Usually we just play the first game with newbies playing a little confused and not understanding totally until the first one is out of the way. I'd prefer to try to make things as clear as possible to cut down on the "I don't know what I'm voting on" type questions.
 
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So do a sample mission, telling everyone just to pick a random card to vote on the team.

Then, tell them what would have happened as a result of that vote.

Then, if they voted to quash the mission, show what would have happened had it gone through.

Then, let the people who would have been voted onto the mission do a vote with a random card on its success.

Then, tell everyone what would have happened as a result of that vote.

Finally, explain who [rebels or spies] would be pleased with that outcome and what it means for their side.
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BobbySoFamous wrote:
These are good suggestions and I think I can take something from each of them.

****
The Resistance wins the game by successfully pulling off three missions. The Spies win by failing three missions. These can be in any order.

The people on the mission choose to either pass the mission or sabotage the mission. One sabotage fails the entire mission. Only people on the mission (people with guns) get to choose to pass or fail.

The Leader (initially randomly determined) chooses a team based on the number on the mission. Everybody votes whether they accept or reject this team. A majority of approvals is required to send the team on the mission; if it fails then the Leader token passes to the left and the new Leader selects a team. If a team fails to assemble after 5 consecutive votes, the Spies automatically win.
****

Any suggestions?
Yep...that sounds good. Say "you vote on mission proposals", and "you submit pass/fail mission cards". Those are the correct terms. You can make a joke about how the Resistance movement is a democracy about who goes on the mission, but once the mission is going, there is no oversight as to who is doing their jobs or not.
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BobbySoFamous wrote:
These are good suggestions and I think I can take something from each of them.

****
The Resistance wins the game by successfully pulling off three missions. The Spies win by failing three missions. These can be in any order.

The people on the mission choose to either pass the mission or sabotage the mission. One sabotage fails the entire mission. Only people on the mission (people with guns) get to choose to pass or fail.

The Leader (initially randomly determined) chooses a team based on the number on the mission. Everybody votes whether they accept or reject this team. A majority of approvals is required to send the team on the mission; if it fails then the Leader token passes to the left and the new Leader selects a team. If a team fails to assemble after 5 consecutive votes, the Spies automatically win.
****

Any suggestions?

I would start from the beginning and work up instead of starting at the end and working backwards.

"To start off with, someone will propose a team. Everybody at the table will vote whether or not they approve of the team. The vote is majority rule and voting is simultaneous. If the team isn't approved, then the person to their left will propose a team and we'll vote again. If the team is approved, each team member will be given a Success and a Fail card. They will submit their card in secret and they'll be shuffled. Members of the Resistance MUST try to succeed the mission. Spies may choose to succeed OR fail it. We'll then flip over the cards and see what happened. All successes and the mission was a success, the Resistance gets a point. Any fails and the mission fails, the spies get a point. The first team to 3 points wins. And, if 5 teams in a row get proposed without getting approved, the spies just win immediately."
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Mat628 wrote:
The first team to 3 points wins. And, if 5 teams in a row get proposed without getting approved, the spies just win immediately."
I don't even explain it like this. I just say that the fifth proposal of a round goes automatically, and explain that it is called "The Hammer". You only need to explain the real rule if you are playing with Plot Cards.
 
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clydeiii wrote:
Mat628 wrote:
The first team to 3 points wins. And, if 5 teams in a row get proposed without getting approved, the spies just win immediately."
I don't even explain it like this. I just say that the fifth proposal of a round goes automatically, and explain that it is called "The Hammer". You only need to explain the real rule if you are playing with Plot Cards.

Good point, I'll start explaining it like that.
 
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NateStraight wrote:
So do a sample mission, telling everyone just to pick a random card to vote on the team.

Then, tell them what would have happened as a result of that vote.

Then, if they voted to quash the mission, show what would have happened had it gone through.

Then, let the people who would have been voted onto the mission do a vote with play a random card on its success.

Then, tell everyone what would have happened as a result of that vote.

Finally, explain who [rebels or spies] would be pleased with that outcome and what it means for their side.

FTFY - Don't use the word 'vote' to describe what happens on a Mission!
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clydeiii wrote:
Mat628 wrote:
The first team to 3 points wins. And, if 5 teams in a row get proposed without getting approved, the spies just win immediately."
I don't even explain it like this. I just say that the fifth proposal of a round goes automatically, and explain that it is called "The Hammer". You only need to explain the real rule if you are playing with Plot Cards.

I've seen 1 game of Avalon end on 5th-team proposal fail and a couple others come really close with guys screwing around, not realizing there were 3 other guys also screwing around. But you could explain it your way to keep it simple for new people and then clarify later.
 
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Mat628 wrote:
clydeiii wrote:
Mat628 wrote:
The first team to 3 points wins. And, if 5 teams in a row get proposed without getting approved, the spies just win immediately."
I don't even explain it like this. I just say that the fifth proposal of a round goes automatically, and explain that it is called "The Hammer". You only need to explain the real rule if you are playing with Plot Cards.

I've seen 1 game of Avalon end on 5th-team proposal fail and a couple others come really close with guys screwing around, not realizing there were 3 other guys also screwing around. But you could explain it your way to keep it simple for new people and then clarify later.
Why do you allow Team Good to lose the game by being stupid?

It's like the rule that says good must play pass. If it didn't exist, new/stupid good players would often put in a fail "to confuse spies".

The rule is nice with plot cards, since it gives spies a very powerful tool in No Confidence, but in Avalon or Vanilla the rule should be simplified to assume all players vote yes to the .5 proposal.
 
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Out of curiosity, do you have an older edition that uses cards for both steps? The new edition uses chips for mission proposals and cards for the actual missions. This has helped me explain the diffidence to many a new player by calling them 'chip voting' and 'card voting'.
 
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Yes, first editions were all cards. I would not say "mission voting", which is anti-thematic. Players are "going" on a mission. They are not voting for success of that mission, they're either doing their part or sabotaging it.
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clydeiii wrote:
Mat628 wrote:
clydeiii wrote:
Mat628 wrote:
The first team to 3 points wins. And, if 5 teams in a row get proposed without getting approved, the spies just win immediately."
I don't even explain it like this. I just say that the fifth proposal of a round goes automatically, and explain that it is called "The Hammer". You only need to explain the real rule if you are playing with Plot Cards.

I've seen 1 game of Avalon end on 5th-team proposal fail and a couple others come really close with guys screwing around, not realizing there were 3 other guys also screwing around. But you could explain it your way to keep it simple for new people and then clarify later.
Why do you allow Team Good to lose the game by being stupid?


If the group-think is sufficiently strong that the fifth proposal should be accepted automatically, there's room for a few players to convey additional information by voting against the fifth team - and the possibility of baiting the bad guys into outing themselves by expecting you to reject and trying to force the win...

It's not a strong strategy, but it's not absolutely crazy either...
 
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Using and expanding upon the imagery provided by the theme of the game helped me clarify the distinction in my mind, and has helped explain to others. As seen in the SUSD Avalon playthrough, having the leader make up a specific mission/quest adds both flavour and helps distinguish the vote from the mission itself.

So you can say something like, "Okay, all resistance members, we are going to hold a conference in our secret base and vote on whether we think this mission should go ahead or not." If it is approved, you can say something like, "Okay, mission members John and Jill are now infiltrating the government archives. They can now perform the mission faithfully, but if one of them is a spy, they may sabotage it with a fail card."

With Avalon, I describe the voting as being done by all the knights in Camelot around the Round Table on whether the quest will occur. If it goes ahead, then it's, "John and Jill are off searching for a shrubbery. They now put in a card determining whether they want to succeed with their quest or sabotage it."

I find "sabotage" a helpful word to keep repeating in order to remind people that while the vote is majority rules, the mission only needs one (sometimes two) fails to be a failure over all.


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