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Subject: Nothing To Prove rss

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Gene Moore
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I haven't seen this posted anywhere on BGG yet. This is pretty fantastic.

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Bryan Thunkd
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Not to rain on your parade, but I'm kinda sad that a video that basically says "Women are people too" is regarded as noteworthy. Or rather that we live in a society so messed up where it is noteworthy.
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Gene Moore
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Thunkd wrote:
Not to rain on your parade, but I'm kinda sad that a video that basically says "Women are people too" is regarded as noteworthy. Or rather that we live in a society so messed up where it is noteworthy.

But that's exactly why things like this video should be recognized and celebrated instead of ignored.
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Huh. A third to a half of my game group has always been women. I've never thought women in gaming was that "odd".

So when women shout "we're here!" in some form on the internet, I always think, you've always been here...big deal, pass the dice.

Funny anecdotal conversation I had this weekend(at least to me):

My wife(total non-gamer) has a mommies groups(totally non-gamers) and I've never hid my geekdom, so everyone knows I am pretty much a total geek. There was a kids party this weekend an one of the mom's came up and:

Mommy: *whisper* "Hey Mike, have you ever played Magic?"
Me: *smiling whisper* "As in The Gathering?"
Mommy: "yeah"
Me: "Why yes, I have been known to partake"
Mommy: "I met my husband at a Magic convention, we still play"
Me: "Well your secret is safe with me" *wink*
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Matt Brown
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I know a girl who was on a panel discussing this very thing, and I felt like I missed some sort of memo.
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Alison Mandible
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MWChapel wrote:
So when women shout "we're here!" in some form on the internet, I always think, you've always been here...big deal, pass the dice.


One of the hardest (but most necessary) pills for me to swallow, as I've tried to give gender issues the attention they deserve, is realizing that there are tons of negative and just-plain-weird experiences that women have which it's very, very easy for men to not notice even when hanging out in the exact same settings.

I bet you those women saying "we're here!" are responding to a constant stream of little signs telling them that they're invisible or unwelcome, even if their presence seems like no big deal to you because you've got an awesome game group locally.
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"that's a smith and wesson, and you've had your six"
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grasa_total wrote:

I bet you those women saying "we're here!" are responding to a constant stream of little signs telling them that they're invisible or unwelcome, even if their presence seems like no big deal to you because you've got an awesome game group locally.


Like I tell everyone, 99% of gaming is all about the company you keep.
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Alyssa McCain
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My comments are a bit rambling, but here are my impressions having just watched the video:

I think it is a little different for women/girls in gaming culture, but it is getting better. I basically gave up on D&D (a game I started playing at age 6) by the time I got to college as I was just so sick of having to prove myself to the local gaming groups. I switched to video games as I could play those by myself or with close friends. I'm very excited to have gotten into gaming again and I have a really great gaming group that is a mix of couples, single folks, men, women.

I have a five year old daughter who LOVES the color pink, superheros, pirates, and cupcakes. She wants to be a scientist like her daddy when she grows up. She has already been told by boys that she couldn't wear a shirt with a robot on it.

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Jennifer Derrick
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It's funny. When I was in high school, there was a fairly large group of "geek girls" that I hung out with so I kind of never saw how "rare" it was to be a girl interested in comics, games, science, etc. My dad was an engineer who encouraged my interests in science, sci-fi, gaming, etc. Even the geek guys in high school were fairly receptive to girls in their groups (with a few exceptions). I grew up in a geek friendly bubble.

But when I got to college, I got a big 'ole slap in the face because every group that was playing games, etc. was guys. And those guys weren't friendly to girls. And where I live now, there are some pockets of friendliness, but the larger environment isn't that girl geek friendly, whether you're talking a gaming table or an office setting.

So I know why these women felt like that had to put this together. As a poster above said, I'm sure it's in response to the constant, small, belittling things that go on every day. It's just regrettable that this kind of statement has to be made. It's a shame that not everyone can be as open as the groups I hung out with in my youth.

I'm pretty sure that if I had encountered a lot of hostility when I was very young that I would not still be interested in the things I like today. I was fortunate to grow up largely unjudged and to reach an age where I could decide for myself what was worth liking without all that negative pressure. Not everyone is so lucky.
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Enrico Viglino
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OxfordRow wrote:


But when I got to college, I got a big 'ole slap in the face because every group that was playing games, etc. was guys. And those guys weren't friendly to girls.


I had the opposite experience. Well, we geeks weren't unfriendly
to females, but we didn't go out of our way to recruit - and we
were pretty durned scorned in general. But in college, it was a
lot easier to find women willing to game. I was shocked to hear
from one friend that she was told, "girls don't play traveller"
at one point - and not allowed into a game (although other RPGs
were fine).


Quote:
I'm pretty sure that if I had encountered a lot of hostility when I was very young that I would not still be interested in the things I like today.


I did encounter a lot. But, it probably had less to do with what I
did than just who I was. Didn't matter much then whether I gamed
or played sports.
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Jonatan Rullman
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Thunkd wrote:
Not to rain on your parade, but I'm kinda sad that a video that basically says "Women are people too" is regarded as noteworthy. Or rather that we live in a society so messed up where it is noteworthy.


I'm not sure I recognize myself in that society. Feminists keep rambling on about it but at this point it feels more like that South Park episode where the kids only see four people hanging a fifth. I know there are people out there that don't think women are people, but I can't relate to it myself because it just isn't in my mindset.

I'm not sure where I want to get with this comment really, possibly only that I too think it is sad that some people find these videos noteworthy, but for another reason.
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Steve Evans
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Did anyone else find it odd that they started off by listing their geek credentials to a song titled 'I've got nothing to prove'?

Then there's the whole 'look at me I'm a girl geek' to convey the message 'don't make a big deal out of it'.

Seriously, who cares? Just pull up a chair, roll some dice, have fun.

Am I missing something here?
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Sara Grace
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Pretty cool.

thumbsupthumbsupthumbsup
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Alyssa McCain
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Jester Wales wrote:
Did anyone else find it odd that they started off by listing their geek credentials to a song titled 'I've got nothing to prove'?

Then there's the whole 'look at me I'm a girl geek' to convey the message 'don't make a big deal out of it'.

Seriously, who cares? Just pull up a chair, roll some dice, have fun.

Am I missing something here?


I think maybe the point you are missing is that while you may not care, lots of guys do. And for some of us ladies who game, we've been told over and over for years that we only play because of boyfriends or only play to get guys or we get talked down to or the like.

It does no harm to have a video like this one out on the interwebz and it may do some good.
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Dan Massek
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People should totally check out the doubleclicks other songs as well. Most are comedy geek songs and not nearly this serious.

They are playing at Gen Con and I can't wait to see them there.
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DZ Woloshyn
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"BUGS!"

Ha ha!

My eldest daughter likes to design games... but she's 5, so her concepts tend to shift promptly from the idea stage to the let's-act-this-out-with-lego-instead stage.

Her "My Little Pony: Cloudsdale Raceway" game turned out to be cagey and occasionally vicious (with a little help from me on the finer balance-tweaking aspects and graphic design).
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T. Dauphin
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Thunkd wrote:
Not to rain on your parade, but I'm kinda sad that a video that basically says "Women are people too" is regarded as noteworthy. Or rather that we live in a society so messed up where it is noteworthy.


Hang on! [Processes logic of statement...]
Are you saying Geeks are people too!? surprise


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Des Lee
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karana21 wrote:
Jester Wales wrote:
Did anyone else find it odd that they started off by listing their geek credentials to a song titled 'I've got nothing to prove'?

Then there's the whole 'look at me I'm a girl geek' to convey the message 'don't make a big deal out of it'.

Seriously, who cares? Just pull up a chair, roll some dice, have fun.

Am I missing something here?


I think maybe the point you are missing is that while you may not care, lots of guys do. And for some of us ladies who game, we've been told over and over for years that we only play because of boyfriends or only play to get guys or we get talked down to or the like.

It does no harm to have a video like this one out on the interwebz and it may do some good.


Indeed. It's basically saying "sexism isn't a problem because I'm not sexist and I haven't seen anyone being sexist". Unless you've been put in that position yourself, I think it's very difficult to understand what that person or that group of people is feeling.

A good friend of mine posted some examples on her blog of sexist behavior directed at her on a daily basis. I was shocked - you mean some people still behave like this in the 2010s???? As she pointed out though, these events happened most often when she was by herself or without any male friends/companions. Just because you personally don't see it, doesn't mean it's not out there.

Good on 'em for putting the video together, and kudos to the contributors. Gaming should be an inclusive activity, and it's a shame that it sometimes isn't because of a minority of douchebags.
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Mike Selinker
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Well, here's my take on it. (Solely aimed at the exclusionists, natch.)



Mike
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Manuel Pasi
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Quote:
I have a five year old daughter who LOVES the color pink, superheros, pirates, and cupcakes.



ha, that sounds pretty much like my son...except for the pirates part...I think he prefers dinosaurs, preferably glttering ones. So, yes we have a loooong way to go (and until then, sadly, videos like that will be necessary), but at least we have come this far that kids won't be crucified nor ridiculed (at that early age, later on it's different) for being a bit different.

Still, society as a whole is not yet ready to deal with equality...weirdly enough I get to feel that quite regularily being the parent who stays home more often. A stay-at-home daddy who only works 2 days and is not the main bread-winner is not very highly regarded!
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Ian Taylor
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This video grated on me a bit to be honest. I have been a gamer for 20 years, across many different types of game, and there has always been female gamers in the mix. Sure, there have always been more men than women in gaming circles, just like book clubs usually have more women than men. Incidentally, that doesn't mean anything has to change, it's just certain things appeal to certain demographics over others.

I have never seen any women gamers treated badly in all that time. That is to say, I have seen some treated badly, but only to the same degree that male gamers have been as well. The more female gamers make a huge deal out of being female gamers, the more people will notice and comment on it; it's self-fulfilling.

As someone said earlier in the thread - we know you're here, just pass the dice.
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Steve Evans
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losfp wrote:
karana21 wrote:
Jester Wales wrote:
Did anyone else find it odd that they started off by listing their geek credentials to a song titled 'I've got nothing to prove'?

Then there's the whole 'look at me I'm a girl geek' to convey the message 'don't make a big deal out of it'.

Seriously, who cares? Just pull up a chair, roll some dice, have fun.

Am I missing something here?


I think maybe the point you are missing is that while you may not care, lots of guys do. And for some of us ladies who game, we've been told over and over for years that we only play because of boyfriends or only play to get guys or we get talked down to or the like.

It does no harm to have a video like this one out on the interwebz and it may do some good.


Indeed. It's basically saying "sexism isn't a problem because I'm not sexist and I haven't seen anyone being sexist". Unless you've been put in that position yourself, I think it's very difficult to understand what that person or that group of people is feeling.

A good friend of mine posted some examples on her blog of sexist behavior directed at her on a daily basis. I was shocked - you mean some people still behave like this in the 2010s???? As she pointed out though, these events happened most often when she was by herself or without any male friends/companions. Just because you personally don't see it, doesn't mean it's not out there.

Good on 'em for putting the video together, and kudos to the contributors. Gaming should be an inclusive activity, and it's a shame that it sometimes isn't because of a minority of douchebags.


Not saying for a second that there aren't d-bags out there or that some people aren't sexist. What I said was with regards to the content of the video.

Do these people start by listing their geek credentials? Yes they do. Is the whole point of the video that they don't have anything to prove? Yes it is.
Nothing against the cause, but right now this is picketing McDonalds while wearing fur.
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piemasteruk wrote:
This video grated on me a bit to be honest. I have been a gamer for 20 years, across many different types of game, and there has always been female gamers in the mix. Sure, there have always been more men than women in gaming circles, just like book clubs usually have more women than men. Incidentally, that doesn't mean anything has to change, it's just certain things appeal to certain demographics over others.

I have never seen any women gamers treated badly in all that time. That is to say, I have seen some treated badly, but only to the same degree that male gamers have been as well. The more female gamers make a huge deal out of being female gamers, the more people will notice and comment on it; it's self-fulfilling.

As someone said earlier in the thread - we know you're here, just pass the dice.


I kind-of agree and I kind-of don't agree... On one hand, I don't think making a big deal changes anything because the douche bags aren't going to listen. The other issue is that a fair proportion of gender policing comes from other women, not men. I've had many more women have issues with my job and hobbies than guys. Not because I'm a loser, but because they see a woman with a physics PhD who writes hard SF as 'not female' and 'transgendered' Bear in mind, I'm petite, blond, and wear pink.

On the other hand, I do notice more sexism as I've got older. On BGG in the last week, I've seen three examples of "girls dig this game" or "when a girl says she doesn't want to game, what she means is I want babies". What? All 3.5 billion women on Earth?

It'd be visibly ridiculous if someone wrote "All men love Twilight Imperium. Buy that game to play with your mates even though the only game they've liked is an economic euros". Or "when a guy says he wants to go out, what he means is he wants to drive fast cars, belch and drink beer".

There's no reason for gamers to be male. In Britain, Bridge was an extremely popular card game and was mostly played by women (since they were traditionally at home and had more free time).
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Manuel Pasi
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Quote:
Do these people start by listing their geek credentials? Yes they do. Is the whole point of the video that they don't have anything to prove? Yes it is.
Nothing against the cause, but right now this is picketing McDonalds while wearing fur.


Sorry, but I think you are completely missing the point. Even if the title is " Nothing To Prove", the everyday reality forces them to have to prove it. So, in fact, it is that they SHOULDN'T have anything to prove.
(similarily there were coming out videos around the theme of not being afraid...that theme was chosen because in fact, many who decided to take that step were terrified...)

As for your McD comparison that's just ridiculous. That would be preaching one thing while livig another, which is so obviously not the case...
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Chris Smith
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I do get a bit frustrated with constant 'Women can do this too' campaigns, though that's more from Uni (Computer Science) than board games.

I just fail to comprehend why numerous events are 'required' all the time for gender-specific aid and pushing of things. Gender has absolutely no bearing on what you do or why you want to do it, and I frown upon any effort that makes one or the other stand out.

We live in an equal world, or we will as soon as people learn to accept it.
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