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Subject: Optional Rules "-1 on morale checks" confusion rss

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George Curtiss
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Sean, can you please clarify whether the -1 is applied to the unit's morale level (MP) or to the die roll in some of the optional rules?

I think the optional rules make it less likely for Austrian cavalry to retreat (-1 to die roll). If Austrian cavalry is elite, this makes sense.

Flank/Rear attacks - this looks like it will make a retreat LESS likely "-1 for morale retreat rolls". I do not think this what you intended.
Same confusion for Unit Facing (flank is -1 and rear is -2 for retreat rolls). I would've thought retreats would be more likely (-1 or -2 to defender's MP) in these very stressful situations, but maybe your intent is that retreats are less likely if a unit is outflanked.

Bottom line: I'd suggest that rather than saying "a unit gets a -1 modifier to morale check" say "a unit gets a -1 modifier to it's morale point value (MP) or a unit gets a -1 to it's die roll when making a morale check". Just a lot less open to interpretation.

Thanks very much!



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fightcitymayor
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That's actually not a bad question because you're right, it does seem counter-intuitive, "Why are enemy units that are being outflanked getting what seems to be a benefit to their die rolls?" But it might make sense since under "Combat Retreat Rules" it states "Defending units failing a morale check must retreat 1 hex away from the attacking unit." And would defending troops then voluntarily "retreat" into enemy lines?

I will say that if I could make a change to the rulebook, it would be to include a dedicated section for Morale Checks (since even the idea of a Morale Check is kinda buried in the Infantry Close Combat section.) Especially when you think about how much Morale Checks are used when you get to the Optional Rules. I'm always forgetting, "Is it better to roll high, or low? Should I want to subtract from the die rolls or add to them? Do terrain benefits increase the MP of my units, or decrease the die rolls?" Although this has confused me since Clash For A Continent, so for me it isn't unique to Frederick's War in particular.
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George Curtiss
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As you say, "it might make sense", but I just can't tell... I think troops that are surrounded or outflanked will bust their butts to get out of that position, and I think that is Sean's intent, but it is not what the rules say, and I am not a mind reader.

This is too straightforward of a game system to be confusing on this issue for this long.

I've also been playing this system from Clash for a Continent: Battles of the American Revolution and French & Indian War and For Honor and Glory: War of 1812 Land and Naval Battles and we are in complete agreement. I really do think it would be smart to decide once and for all whether we have DRMs or changes to MPs on morale checks and stick with one or the other!
 
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Man thinks, the river flows.
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    Indeed we are approaching 40 hours since product release without a ruling.

    If all of the situations indicate the enemy behind the unit it amy indeed make retreat a less viable option. Surrounded troops can be quite tenacious whether they care to be or not.

    Gittes will get here, in the meantime play it the way that makes sense to you.

             S.


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Peter Putnam
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Sean can give the final answer but I think in both cases you will subtract one from the dice roll. The Austrian were considered the most skilled cav in the world are more likely to pull off a withdraw before combat successfully.

In the case of a surrounded unit they're more likely to run in a close combat situation. If you play with this rule I would also play with the withdrawal rule where they are likely to lose a mp.
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George Curtiss
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Just for clarification... I'm defining withdrawal as the voluntary move that cavalry gets to do to avoid infantry close combat or a cavalry charge. No problem with this, and I would use the "morale check to take one hit" optional rule on these moves (and NOT on retreats). Austrian cavalry getting this bonus makes sense!

I'm defining retreats as caused by defender morale checks before close combat, and these are the ones where the -1 (-2 for rear attack) are confusing me. If we want surrounded or outflanked units to be more likely to run, these negative DRMs to the retreat die roll are counter-intuitive since they make it less likely. These should be positive DRMs or negative modifiers to the unit's Morale Points if we want to make retreat more likely.

One other question: Prussian infantry are optionally given a hit for doubles on their attack rolls at range 1-2 hexes. I see where this works at range of 1 (adjacent) but not at range of 2, since only one die is rolled. Elite bonus changes 3 dice to 4, but does not appear to change one die to two. For Prussian infantry, any doubles cause an additional hit, but would three of a kind (say rolling three 2s) cause 1 or 2 or 3 additional hits? (do I get to pair up my three or elite four dice in all possible doubles combinations if I roll trips or better?)

Thanks for your help!

 
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Sean Chick (Formerly Paul O'Sullivan)
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Well, I'm afraid it'll have to wait. Whatever it was, I'm sure it was better than my plan to get out of this by pretending to be mad. I mean, who would have noticed another madman round here?
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gdnuke wrote:
One other question: Prussian infantry are optionally given a hit for doubles on their attack rolls at range 1-2 hexes. I see where this works at range of 1 (adjacent) but not at range of 2, since only one die is rolled. Elite bonus changes 3 dice to 4, but does not appear to change one die to two. For Prussian infantry, any doubles cause an additional hit, but would three of a kind (say rolling three 2s) cause 1 or 2 or 3 additional hits? (do I get to pair up my three or elite four dice in all possible doubles combinations if I roll trips or better?)

Thanks for your help!


Three of a kind is still a double. It still causes just 1 extra hit. I thought of taking away this rule for the Seven Years War scenarios because the Austrians had improved their fire discipline considerably, but decided to keep it. Austria's improvements are evident with more CAP and better generals. I may in the future add rules for improved Austrian artillery for the more hardcore players.

As for 2 hex attacks, it is a left over from when the game was incorrectly being kept at the Hold the Line scale. The decision to reduce combat ranges comes from the fact that these battles are monsters compared to the stuff fought between Washington and Howe. I noticed the 2 hex error once it was too late to fix.
 
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Sean Chick (Formerly Paul O'Sullivan)
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Well, I'm afraid it'll have to wait. Whatever it was, I'm sure it was better than my plan to get out of this by pretending to be mad. I mean, who would have noticed another madman round here?
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gdnuke wrote:
I think the optional rules make it less likely for Austrian cavalry to retreat (-1 to die roll). If Austrian cavalry is elite, this makes sense.


This is an interesting idea. I thought of it only in terms of cavalry withdrawal, and I think that is the best way to keep the rule. If you do like the above interpretation, then I suggest only in cases of battles with light cavalry.
 
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Sean Chick (Formerly Paul O'Sullivan)
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Well, I'm afraid it'll have to wait. Whatever it was, I'm sure it was better than my plan to get out of this by pretending to be mad. I mean, who would have noticed another madman round here?
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Quote:
Flank/Rear attacks - this looks like it will make a retreat LESS likely "-1 for morale retreat rolls". I do not think this what you intended.

Same confusion for Unit Facing (flank is -1 and rear is -2 for retreat rolls). I would've thought retreats would be more likely (-1 or -2 to defender's MP) in these very stressful situations, but maybe your intent is that retreats are less likely if a unit is outflanked.


The units are -1 MP in those cases. Sorry it was not more clear.

My hope is that a final series rulebook will in the future fix all of the above and bring in the Turks and Spanish.
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George Curtiss
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Thanks for all the answers, Sean. They all sound good to me.

Austrian cavalry -1 only as regards withdrawal (and possible withdrawal hit), not retreats. Check!

Flank/Rear attacks (encircled) and Flank/Rear attacks (using Unit facing) -1 or -2 for retreat rolls means -1 or -2 to the defender's MP, not to the die roll. Check!

Prussian infantry score ONE extra hit if they get any doubles or triples with 3 dice. Check!

On the small chance that a Prussian elite infantry unit rolling 4 dice gets two sets of doubles, say two 3s and two 5s, would the defender have to take two additional hits or just one? I know it'll happen, so I'm asking ahead of time!

Turks and Spanish, huh? How about Russians and Swedes???!!

I think I'm all set to get playing. Thanks again!
 
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Sean Chick (Formerly Paul O'Sullivan)
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Well, I'm afraid it'll have to wait. Whatever it was, I'm sure it was better than my plan to get out of this by pretending to be mad. I mean, who would have noticed another madman round here?
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gdnuke wrote:
On the small chance that a Prussian elite infantry unit rolling 4 dice gets two sets of doubles, say two 3s and two 5s, would the defender have to take two additional hits or just one? I know it'll happen, so I'm asking ahead of time!



Yeah, they would take 2 extra hits from 2 sets of doubles.

Quote:
Turks and Spanish, huh? [b]How about Russians and Swedes???!!

I think I'm all set to get playing. Thanks again!


The plan is to have the Turks and Spanish show up in a big scenario book with the rules completely refined. That is at least my hope.

My main plan is to get the Great Northern War out as an expansion, maybe for next year. I should get to work on that right now.
 
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George Curtiss
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Your plans sound very good. When you are done fielding our Frederick and Highland questions, the Great Northern War expansion needs you!
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Sean Chick (Formerly Paul O'Sullivan)
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Well, I'm afraid it'll have to wait. Whatever it was, I'm sure it was better than my plan to get out of this by pretending to be mad. I mean, who would have noticed another madman round here?
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gdnuke wrote:
Your plans sound very good. When you are done fielding our Frederick and Highland questions, the Great Northern War expansion needs you!


Thanks.

Here are the battles I am considering.

Narva
Klissow
Fraustadt
Kalisz
Holowczyn
Lesnaya
Poltava
Gadebusch

Then for the Seven Years' War...
Gross-Jägersdorf
Zorndorf
Kunersdorf
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Scott Smith
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gittes wrote:
I should get to work on that right now.

Yes you should!
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Sean Chick (Formerly Paul O'Sullivan)
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Fag an bealac! Riam nar druid ar sbarin lann! Cuimhnigidh ar Luimnech agus feall na Sassonach! Erin go Bragh! Remember Limerick! Remember Ireland and Fontenoy!
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Well, I'm afraid it'll have to wait. Whatever it was, I'm sure it was better than my plan to get out of this by pretending to be mad. I mean, who would have noticed another madman round here?
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resQscooter wrote:
gittes wrote:
I should get to work on that right now.

Yes you should!


I am going to start before I e-mail Worthington. They are still busy sending off copies and all that and I want to have something to show them when I do e-mail them.

I might add Burkersdorf, one of the strangest battles of the era. I had no idea Daun was present. Tt was Frederick's and Daun's last battle.
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Sean Chick (Formerly Paul O'Sullivan)
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Fag an bealac! Riam nar druid ar sbarin lann! Cuimhnigidh ar Luimnech agus feall na Sassonach! Erin go Bragh! Remember Limerick! Remember Ireland and Fontenoy!
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Well, I'm afraid it'll have to wait. Whatever it was, I'm sure it was better than my plan to get out of this by pretending to be mad. I mean, who would have noticed another madman round here?
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New scenario list...

Narva
Klissow
Fraustadt
Holowczyn
Lesnaya
Poltava
Gadebusch

Gross-Jägersdorf
Zorndorf
Kay
Kunersdorf
Burkersdorf
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HERMANN LUTTMANN
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The "Dorf" expansion!
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fightcitymayor
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gittes wrote:
Narva
Klissow
Fraustadt
Holowczyn
Lesnaya
Poltava
Gadebusch
Gross-Jägersdorf
Zorndorf
Kay
Kunersdorf
Burkersdorf

Gesundheit!

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