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Android: Netrunner» Forums » Strategy

Subject: I don't understand why more people aren't bouncing off the walls about Atman? rss

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Owen Compton
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Maybe I'm missing something but doesn't Atman just completely replace most (efficient) breaker suites that are already spending a reasonable amount of influence on breakers as it is.

For example, I use the Anarch breakers in my Andy deck (Corroder, Mimic, Yog, occasionally Faerie instead of Mimic) and I'm wondering why everyone doesn't just chuck the lot and take 2x Atman and 3x Datasucker (chuck in some Special Orders/Test Run/Self-Modifying Code for Atman consistency). I know Atman's slightly more influence expensive but you save overall (depending on number included) and you could even keep Yog for the extra efficiency if you wanted (though that 5 install cost is annoying!)

I recognise that the drawbacks are relying on getting Atman as soon as possible to be able to break anything, but you can include tutors for that. Also not getting your Datasuckers out would be a serious problem but you can draw for the Datasuckers and include Doppelganger and double run Archives to get help with charging them. Finally having an Atman installed at, say, initial strength 3 could be a problem if you run into a lot of lesser strength ice, but if you're really worried then install the second Atman at 0 strength or include a Crypsis backup.

Probably the hardest counter to it is deep forts as you'll run out of Datasucker tokens before you can break everything but you could have a Crypsis backup? Deep forts don't seem to be terribly trendy at the moment (at least not in my meta, but that might all be about to change!)

Have I missed something?

EDIT in response to replies:

I agree that ice lesser than it would be annoyed but I would say if you set it to 2 then that would cover Enigmas and Data Mines.

I guess the biggest weakness of setting it to 2 is that while you can deal with almost all ice then you're going to be chewing through Datasucker tokens like there's no tomorrow.

I guess the hidden cost of Atman + Datasucker is the Clicks you'd have to spend running undefended Archives (assuming it is undefended) just to keep yourself topped up with enough Datasucker tokens, which even then could still ultimately get you shutout of doing any runs at all if the Corp virus purges.
 
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Sebastian Barth
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The Sacred Voice wrote:
Have I missed something?

I'd say the virus purge
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Michael Redston
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Atman can't break subroutines on pieces of ice with lower/higher strength.

@Barth: Atman uses power counters, not virus.
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Jonathan Buckley
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From what I'm reading Atman needs to be equal to the ICE's strength in order to break it, so if it's stronger then it can't be used. For that reason I'm personally not too hyped by it, but I'm sure it's good for getting out of tricky situations.
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Geoff Thomas
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kroen wrote:
Atman can't break subroutines on pieces of ice with lower/higher strength.

@Barth: Atman uses power counters, not virus.


You purge the tokens on Datasucker so you can no longer control the strength of Atman. Unless all the ice in a central server is the same strength (or unprotected) you don't have a good way of getting them back.
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Ony Moose
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Say you are worried about an archer, you can install a Femme targetting where you *think* it might be, but if you pick the wrong unrezzed ice you have wasted your femme. If you facecheck it first, you are in trouble.

However with Atman, you can dial it to "archer/flare" and then not worry about *where* the threat is installed.

Atman does have weaknesses to Experiential Data/Troubleshooter, but can be helped by Wyrm/DataSuckers.

I think of Atman as a FemmeFatale for shaper, but targetting *what* rather than *where*.

Or you can add it to your anarch fixed strength build at Str5/6 for a significant boost. Atman and Wyrm seem to combo quite nicely though. Or Atman and Darwin.
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Ben Benjamin

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Well for starters, I run 3x Farie, 2x Corroder, 2x Yog, and 2x Mimic in addition to Data Suckers in my Andy deck, so that's still one less influence than 3 Atman(11 as opposed to 12 if you include 3 Data Suckers). I'm also not married to Mimic since I have Faeries so I could bring that down to 6 spare influence if I felt the need.

Secondly, I think that Atman's inability to break stuff smaller than it is going to be a lot more detrimental than you think. Needing 2 of them is going to make it a lot harder to set up a completed rig (i.e. you can run anything if you have the cash). I think it'll be good in Shaper, who has a ton of program search at its disposal, so you can get the 2 Atmans and the Datasucker Support you need. 2 Atman + 2-3 Datasuckers will be a good complete rig, but that'll be hard for anyone not running SMC to get out in a timely fashion.
 
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Sebastian Barth
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kroen wrote:
Atman can't break subroutines on pieces of ice with lower/higher strength.

@Barth: Atman uses power counters, not virus.

Basically what Geoff said. After you purge Datasuckers, you can only break Ice with the exact strength. I think an Atman-only deck can be too easily shut down from central server access that way.
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Steven Tu
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sirprim wrote:
kroen wrote:
Atman can't break subroutines on pieces of ice with lower/higher strength.

@Barth: Atman uses power counters, not virus.

Basically what Geoff said. After you purge Datasuckers, you can only break Ice with the exact strength. I think an Atman-only deck can be too easily shut down from central server access that way.


Just like Darwin And if you need a million pieces to get in, then why not just bring flexible, real breakers?
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Dirk Tebben
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jediloser wrote:
Well for starters, I run 3x Farie, 2x Corroder, 2x Yog, and 2x Mimic in addition to Data Suckers in my Andy deck, so that's still one less influence than 3 Atman(11 as opposed to 12 if you include 3 Data Suckers). I'm also not married to Mimic since I have Faeries so I could bring that down to 6 spare influence if I felt the need.

Secondly, I think that Atman's inability to break stuff smaller than it is going to be a lot more detrimental than you think. Needing 2 of them is going to make it a lot harder to set up a completed rig (i.e. you can run anything if you have the cash). I think it'll be good in Shaper, who has a ton of program search at its disposal, so you can get the 2 Atmans and the Datasucker Support you need. 2 Atman + 2-3 Datasuckers will be a good complete rig, but that'll be hard for anyone not running SMC to get out in a timely fashion.


People running the Anarch breaker suite are already running Crypsis. Atman + Crypsis/2nd Atman + Datasucker as a full rig is quicker and easier than Yog + Mimic + Corroder + Crypsis + Datasucker. The question is whether or not it works as well. I think it likely does, given the clumpy distribution of ice strengths in the 3-4 range. It will have some of the same vulnerabilities as the Anarch breakers (Corporate Troubleshooter, advanceable ice) but it's already been proven that those can be worked around.
 
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Josh Churley
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I think the mistake people are making is that they are thinking of Atman as a stand-in for their current breaker suite. While it's possible to run a deck with just Atman's and Suckers, I don't think that's how it was "intended". The new Shaper style that is being released is a program-central one. Think of it like this:

Criminals are event-based, they primarily use event tricks to get where they want. 20+ cards in their deck are events, and they may only have 4-8 programs. Their programs are there to just support their events.

Shapers are program-based, they use programs to get where they want. 20+ cards in their deck are programs. They use Cyber-Cypher to slaughter R&D runs. Atman is their inside job or Femme, installed to take care of a SINGLE piece of problem ice. If it can get used on more than 1 ice, great. Whenever you have too many programs you trash them for 2 creds to that one event I forget the name. Shaper events simply support their programs.

Anarch is somewhere in between - typical Anarchists, hard to define.
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Alex Rockwell
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Atman is the best card in C&C.
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Steven Tu
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Alexfrog wrote:
Atman is the best card in C&C.


Alex ❤ Datasuckers
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Bryan Blumklotz
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Have two installed at 0 and 3 strength... Data suckers and helpful AI for the win... Still doesn't deal with Pop-up econ drain...
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Eliot Hemingway
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Tuism wrote:
Alexfrog wrote:
Atman is the best card in C&C.


Alex ❤ Datasuckers


I tend to disagree with Alex, but in this case he's correct. Whether intentionally or not, FFG seems to love sneaking in an un-previewed bomb in every single release.
 
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Alex Rockwell
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Saracenus wrote:
Have two installed at 0 and 3 strength... Data suckers and helpful AI for the win... Still doesn't deal with Pop-up econ drain...


Yeah. Datasucker is just an awesome card and it makes Atman ridiculously good. Atman handles large ice pretty well. Crypsis handles small ice pretty well, and large ice expensively. A breaker of each type handles their type efficiently.

Mix and match pieces of this setup together depending on the boardstate, with Special Orders to tutor for the part you need. Thats a highly effective way to handle ice.
 
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Cedric Bertolini
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It is not a highly effective way to handle ice. You will need a datasucker virus counter for each point of difference between a large ice and your atman, and a crypsis virus counter for each small ice. Assuming you don't only run on unprotected central servers, you will have to make a lot of preparatory runs to load the datasucker(s) and preparatory clicks to load the crypsis.

Furthermore, there's no "sweet spot" for Atman's strength, since the larger it is, the more you'll need Crypsis, and the smaller it is, the more you'll need Datasuckers. Either way, you'll lose a lot of clicks enabling them.

As an additional downside to this strategy, there's no synergy between Datasucker and Crypsis. And a virus wipe will leave you almost naked.
 
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Steven Tu
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I support the "it's not that awesome on paper but let's see if we can build broken decks with them since they're all such cool cards" school
 
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Brad vanVugt
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for me, i look at it as a decent influence-free replacement for Femme in shaper decks. its a killer card to run alongside an already good breaker suite. im looking forward to experimenting with it
 
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Anton R.
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2 ice walls in hq+rnd. And you can do nothing.

It' s the same thing as in case of darwin+e3. Why does nobody play it as single icebreaker? It just doesn't work.
 
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Oscar Iglesias
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somethingsfishy wrote:

Anarch is somewhere in between - typical Anarchists, hard to define.


And they got lot of friends ^_^ (resources)
 
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David Jensen
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meh not a fan.

3 initial cost + (x?)... and you'd have to guess what strength the ICE is. I choose Str 4 (I think it's pretty popular ICE). That's a 7 cost breaker =( and you still need data sucker to help you.

With Test Run, Workshop and SelfModifying Code - I just don't see this card as being super valuable.

 
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James 3
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theres a lot of 4 and 5 cost ice that is expensive to repeatedly break turn after turn. atman may cost 7 or 8 to install, but will then crack those ice for 1 or 2 credits compared to what was likely much more without if even possible. its certainly a "run for cheap" breaker that can be very effective depending on board state. anarchs have had a monopoly on the run for cheap once installed breakers until now pretty much.
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Matt
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Let's see now... 3 Datasuckers and 2 Wyrms into a Shaper deck is 7 Influence spent... Dial 1 Atman to 0 and another to 3/4... Use SMC, Test Run, etc to tutor... 13/14 credits to install the lot, plus setup/draw time/creds...

It might be a little expensive, but I'm covered after a virus purge as long as Wyrm's out, and he does really well at pulling the low-strength ICE into the lower Atman's range.

Yeah, I'll be trying this out...

 
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Ben Finkel
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I certainly think the way to play Atman is reactively - Self Modifying Code and Personal Workshop will put it to the strength you need, not the strength you expect to need.

Cost-wise, it looks a lot like Femme Fatale because as people have noted, it is a lot like Femme Fatale. Seems reasonable. The only problem is that you can't cheat the cost, really, as your strength-setting credits can't come from Retrieval/Test Run or Scavenge.
 
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