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Subject: Custom Biotics is underrated rss

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Michael Redston
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Consider this: Someday, when the card pool grows (and maybe even in today's card pool), some mad genius is going to come up with an amazing deck that is only possible with the Custom Biotics ID.
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Thomas Berton
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I think even right now it would be possible to do a solid HB Tag 'N Bag with it, what with all this brain damage punishment that's come out.
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Michael Redston
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tberton wrote:
I think even right now it would be possible to do a solid HB Tag 'N Bag with it, what with all this brain damage punishment that's come out.

Forget T&B, that's possible in Weyland and NBN and isn't very exciting. I'm not saying a CB T&B couldn't rival them, I'm saying that one day a deck would emerge that is simply impossible in any other ID.
 
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Steven Tu
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Brain Damage + Scorch is deadly. I'm already looking at building HB Brain Damage decks. The brain damage set in HB is phenomenal right now.
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Wesley Kinslow
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There was a deck going around with Big Brother, Psychographics, and SEA Source that would try to stick several tags and then throw 40 advancements on a Vitruvius - only to recur Big Brothers and Psychographics again.

With this much influence you could likely add in some number of Midseason Replacements and see what happens. It sounds fun if nothing else.
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Chris Long
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I'm right there with you. My post from a month ago...

Quote:
I don't think that identity will break anything in the card pool NOW. I think it will either severely limit design in the future OR break powerful card combinations that crop up as the card pool grows.

Imagine 3 cards with 4+ influence (one in HB, NBN, and Weyland) that either make an amazing combo, or like the Tag N Bag deck, just synergize with each other very well. In the current 15 influence system, you really wouldn't be able to include all 3 of those hypothetical cards in your deck. At least not do so and be competitive. At best you could get 2 copies of one card and 1 copy of the other, and then obviously 3 copies of the one in faction. And on top of that, you would have focused on it so exclusively that the rest of your deck is severely weakened.

Now with 22 influence, you could put 3 copies of the in-faction card, 2 copies of one of the out-of-faction card, and 2 copies of the other. At 4 influence for four cards, you still have 8 influence left to fill in your deck with other balancing cards. Or maybe you add a third copy of one of the out-of-faction cards for even more consistency. This is the sort of scenario in which the influence system (used as a balancing mechanism for powerful cards) breaks down.

My point is that they are fundamentally breaking one of the core balancing mechanics in the game, and it will either limit their design in the future, or bite them in the ass with an overpowered deck.
 
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Ony Moose
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Commercialisation, Mid Season, Pyschographics, Vitruvirus, Ice Wall.

That's a deck right there, and probably a rather fun to play one.
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Michele Lupo
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wedgeex wrote:
There was a deck going around with Big Brother, Psychographics, and SEA Source that would try to stick several tags and then throw 40 advancements on a Vitruvius - only to recur Big Brothers and Psychographics again.

With this much influence you could likely add in some number of Midseason Replacements and see what happens. It sounds fun if nothing else.


I need to do some more study, but i think it's theoretically possible to actually combo an infinite click turn...

EDIT: I'm stupid. It's impossible until there is a reusable way to return two cards from Archives to HQ using a single card
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Olivier
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wedgeex wrote:
There was a deck going around with Big Brother, Psychographics, and SEA Source that would try to stick several tags and then throw 40 advancements on a Vitruvius - only to recur Big Brothers and Psychographics again.

With this much influence you could likely add in some number of Midseason Replacements and see what happens. It sounds fun if nothing else.

http://boardgamegeek.com/thread/969113/deck-hb-tag-psycho-an...
 
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Justin K
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Wolf88 wrote:
wedgeex wrote:
There was a deck going around with Big Brother, Psychographics, and SEA Source that would try to stick several tags and then throw 40 advancements on a Vitruvius - only to recur Big Brothers and Psychographics again.

With this much influence you could likely add in some number of Midseason Replacements and see what happens. It sounds fun if nothing else.


I need to do some more study, but i think it's theoretically possible to actually combo an infinite click turn...

EDIT: I'm stupid. It's impossible until there is a reusable way to return two cards from Archives to HQ using a single card


About your edit: there is: Vitruvius. However, you'll run out of Vitruvius copies before you get to an infinite loop. If you allow me to *slightly* break the rules and include as many copies of vitruvius as I want, we can do the following:

(assume the runner has arbitrarily many tags from a Midseason Replacements, you have Biotic Labor and Thomas Haas in your heap, Psychographics in your hand)
--Install Vitruvius
--Psychographics Vitruvius for 11 (8 hosted counters) (-11c)
--Recur BL and play it 5 times (-20c)
--Recur psycho and Tommy
--Install Tommy and Psycho him for 32, then sac him for 64 (+31c)
--Recur psycho again
--Draw a card which is 'magically' another Vitruvius
--repeat

This is sustainable ad infinitum, but of course I cheated a bit with the unlimited copies of Vitrivius. If only they went to your heap instead of your score area we could recur those too
 
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Alex Rockwell
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I seriously doubt that this deck that can 'only' be build with Custom Biotics will be better than a very similar deck using 15 influence instead of 22, but getting the HB:EtF power.

That seems like an overvaluation of the importance of 7 influence, and and undervaluation of the impact of the HB +$1/turn power.
 
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Martin Isaksson
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HB:ETF is even (sometimes) worth more than 1credit per turn! (Installs during runners turn) *ugh*
 
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Alex Rockwell
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Rollingthunder wrote:
HB:ETF is even (sometimes) worth more than 1credit per turn! (Installs during runners turn) *ugh*


HOWLER!!!!!!!!
 
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Vincent Perry
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EtF is not "$1/turn" It is $1 each turn you install something. You therefore will not gain $1

1) If you don't have anything you can/want to install
2) You Melange or purge
3) You install an ice beyond the first ice (in which case you get a discount...not the same as gaining $1 still a benefit but not as good.)


Getting $1/turn will sometimes mean that you install something you wouldn't otherwise install, or you don't install something you otherwise would install because you want an install for next turn. In these cases, making a worse option slightly better is a marginal benefit. Again, it IS still a benefit, but calling it "$1 per turn" ignores that, in order to get the $1, you may need to make a play that isn't that great compared to your other options, but the play plus $1 is actually decent.

As an example, maybe you draw an Enigma late in the game with a Yog.0 out. Normally, you wouldn't even waste an action installing it...you might just click for a credit in this case. Maybe it is actually pretty decent in your hand since it helps protect HQ there. However, in this case, all ETF gives you is a free install of an Enigma as a first ice somewhere with your credit. That is a pretty marginal benefit, and in fact in this case you might even prefer to just keep it in your hand.

ETF = "$1 per turn" is an oversimplification that ignores that you can just click for the credit. Since you can't always install something (or you don't want to), you should think of ETF as "During the first click for credit action you take each turn, you may install a card, paying all install costs" THIS really makes clear that the benefit of EtF on a given turn is the value of the install action...and many times an install is not very valuable. There will be cards that change this calculus, like Minelayer, Midori, etc. But I think that thinking of the bonus as the install really shows that the value of EtF depends on what you have to install and can't just be simplified as "$1/turn"

Just sayin'

EDIT: Bold added for emphasis.
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Michele Lupo
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kops wrote:
Wolf88 wrote:
wedgeex wrote:
There was a deck going around with Big Brother, Psychographics, and SEA Source that would try to stick several tags and then throw 40 advancements on a Vitruvius - only to recur Big Brothers and Psychographics again.

With this much influence you could likely add in some number of Midseason Replacements and see what happens. It sounds fun if nothing else.


I need to do some more study, but i think it's theoretically possible to actually combo an infinite click turn...

EDIT: I'm stupid. It's impossible until there is a reusable way to return two cards from Archives to HQ using a single card


About your edit: there is: Vitruvius. However, you'll run out of Vitruvius copies before you get to an infinite loop. If you allow me to *slightly* break the rules and include as many copies of vitruvius as I want, we can do the following:

(assume the runner has arbitrarily many tags from a Midseason Replacements, you have Biotic Labor and Thomas Haas in your heap, Psychographics in your hand)
--Install Vitruvius
--Psychographics Vitruvius for 11 (8 hosted counters) (-11c)
--Recur BL and play it 5 times (-20c)
--Recur psycho and Tommy
--Install Tommy and Psycho him for 32, then sac him for 64 (+31c)
--Recur psycho again
--Draw a card which is 'magically' another Vitruvius
--repeat

This is sustainable ad infinitum, but of course I cheated a bit with the unlimited copies of Vitrivius. If only they went to your heap instead of your score area we could recur those too


Yeah for the combo to go infinite we would need to have something like "Even More Archived Memories, 2 cost, add two cards from archives to HQ"
 
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Alex Rockwell
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theodorelogan wrote:
EtF is not "$1/turn" It is $1 each turn you install something. You therefore will not gain $1

1) If you don't have anything you can/want to install
2) You Melange or purge
3) You install an ice beyond the first ice (in which case you get a discount...not the same as gaining $1 still a benefit but not as good.)


Yes but it is currently $1 most turns.


Also, if we are talking about some magical future time, in which Custom Biotics becomes super powerful, lets not forget that HB: EtF can grow more powerful over time too.

The more strong effects we have that install on the RUNNER turn, the better this ability gets. Howler does this, Midori can do this, though its out of faciton. Imagine a future where HB is regularly managing to install or swap ice on the runner's turn. Suddenly we are talking about MORE than $1 a turn.


When talking about futures where new cards make something (Custom Biotics) become stronger, dont forget that the cards they are competing against (EtF) might also get stronger due to new effects, and continue to outclass them.

 
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R N
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The marginal gain of 7 influence after spending 15 influence is a lot less than you might think. This influence is not buying you the best out of faction cards in the game, but the best having already spent 15 influence. So if you make a SE deck using this ID, the influence is buying you support cards, not SE.

Also consider that you don't need to twink HB:EtF for this card ID to lose power. This ID loses power as more low influence cards become available.
 
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John Thornby
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slacks wrote:
This influence is not buying you the best out of faction cards in the game, but the best having already spent 15 influence.


I don't agree with your thought process here. I think you're implicitly saying that you're starting with a 15 influence deck and modifying it by adding in 7 more not so good cards. While perfectly valid as a process, I don't believe you're getting the most out of this ID using it in that fashion.

The idea here is to pick cards that are not normally viable to play out of faction because of their high influence cost - for example putting pieces of a combo together that ordinarily can't be made in a lower influence deck (or at least not efficiently/reliably if you're only running single copies).

That's not me saying that this ID is good (yet) - by definition it works with out of faction cards so it's not going to shine in a deluxe set showcasing Hass-Bioroid. People should recognise this fact and probably forget about this ID for now, but just keep it in the back of your mind as the card pool grows.
 
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Vincent Perry
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xenakis wrote:
slacks wrote:
This influence is not buying you the best out of faction cards in the game, but the best having already spent 15 influence.


I don't agree with your thought process here. I think you're implicitly saying that you're starting with a 15 influence deck and modifying it by adding in 7 more not so good cards. While perfectly valid as a process, I don't believe you're getting the most out of this ID using it in that fashion.

The idea here is to pick cards that are not normally viable to play out of faction because of their high influence cost - for example putting pieces of a combo together that ordinarily can't be made in a lower influence deck (or at least not efficiently/reliably if you're only running single copies).

That's not me saying that this ID is good (yet) - by definition it works with out of faction cards so it's not going to shine in a deluxe set showcasing Hass-Bioroid. People should recognise this fact and probably forget about this ID for now, but just keep it in the back of your mind as the card pool grows.


Another way to say this is that the value of 22 influence is not the values of the best 15 influence + the value of the next best 7 influence. The value is the harder to quantify difference between the best deck you can build with 15 influence and the best deck you can build with 22 influence. They may not be diminishing returns with the addition influence...the additional influence may in fact result in increased synergy. As an example, is the second Rabbit Hole in your deck worth less or more than the first one? And the third? Is the first piece of bread worth more, or is the second piece, when you are making a sandwich?
 
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Ben Finkel
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theodorelogan wrote:
Is the first piece of bread worth more, or is the second piece, when you are making a sandwich?


Definitely the first. You can hold the toppings above, and in the worst case you could fold the bread in half.
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R N
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Fair enough, my point is that I believe that the diminishing returns are stronger than any sort of increased synergy and I think that will become more true as alternate low influence options become available.

We aren't talking about adding a second slice of bread, we are talking about adding a third (IMO).
 
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Eric Steiger
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theodorelogan wrote:

Another way to say this is that the value of 22 influence is not the values of the best 15 influence + the value of the next best 7 influence. The value is the harder to quantify difference between the best deck you can build with 15 influence and the best deck you can build with 22 influence. They may not be diminishing returns with the addition influence...the additional influence may in fact result in increased synergy. As an example, is the second Rabbit Hole in your deck worth less or more than the first one? And the third? Is the first piece of bread worth more, or is the second piece, when you are making a sandwich?


Well, the third slice of bread is really the defining feature of the club sandwich, so...

In any case, your point is strong. There may come a day when an AWESOME 5 (or maybe even 6) influence NBN or Weyland card just rocks an HB deck, such that you need 3 of them (maybe it's something that takes 5 clicks to use or some such, so you'd have to have Biotic Labor + Arco AI...I dunno).

But today is not that day.
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John Thornby
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I'd agree that it is diminishing returns, in the sense that if I gave you the options of having 10, 100, 1000 or 1000000 influence, the decks you would build with the latter three choices would all be the same - i.e. there comes a point where you simply can't even use the extra influence.

But that's not the case here - at low levels of influence the types of decks you can build are inherently limited: you are essentially restricted to splashing a few cards in the 1-3 influence range or 3 copies of a powerhouse card (Scorched Earth, Account Siphon) etc.

If you're thinking about this ID in the context of squeezing every last drop of value out of your influence to optimise your ICE and ops selection then I think you're heading in the wrong direction - you should be looking to build an entirely different kind of deck. This identity breaks that mold and makes it possible to combine several of the strongly themed, powerhouse cards and explore combinations from other factions that would not normally be possible (or at least not reliable with fewer copies due to limited influence).

It's hard to give examples because those cards simply don't exist yet. This ID needs good cards from other factions, which C&C clearly doesn't provide, so it seems to be a bit of a strange inclusion in a deluxe set where it gets none of the help it needs - but in a year's time when we've got another two cycles and a deluxe set to choose from it could be a different story.

To reiterate: I'm not saying this is a good card right now, but it could be in the future with more support for the other factions. Like most of you I'm going to try it out with the cards that are available now. For instance, I have a regional winning HB EtF deck that happens to not have any Jinteki in it - so I'll experiment to see whether 7 extra influence nets any more value/utility than the free money from the core ID, but I don't think it will.

EDIT: Formatting
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Sebastian Barth
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Here is what I think will only be playable in Custom Biotics:

A three card combo involving Haas, NBN and Weyland.

Why not a 2 card combo?
If it's a 2 card combo, just put it in a regular ID of the faction whose combo card costs more influence.

Why involve all three factions?
Because any 3 card combo out of Haas + NBN/Weyland x2 or Haas x2 + NBN/Weyland could be played out of one 15 influence ID.

The likely result will be that this combo involves Haas setting up the infrastructure for the NBN and Weyland cards, this infrastructure will most likely come from Haas core themes like extra clicks or recursion or both.

One could argue that Tag'N'Bag is such a Weyland + NBN combo, but it doesn't need the Haas specific infrastructure.

TLDR : Once there is a high influence Weyland + NBN combo that needs Haas infrastructure, then Custom Biotics will have its place. But not before
 
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Peter O
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Just strolled along a nice little realization that pertains to Custom Biotics with Tag-n-Bag. Biotics is probably already running PSF to make use of tags, drain PC counters, and so forth.

Efficiency Committee can give you 3 extra clicks in a single turn, making Tag-n-Bag have just that much more punch either through making PSF immediately lethal on its own, or recurring SE multiple times with AM.

Come to think of it, this may not be the best argument for Biotics alone...

never mind
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