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Innovation: Echoes of the Past» Forums » Variants

Subject: Mixing Base + Echoes - "Gosu style" rss

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Rafał Kruczek
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Quick link to decklists
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0Av866IWVb2zPdGF...
Decklist also in spoiler tags under long description below:

---

Innovation is one of several card games with a base game published in 2010 with circa 100 cards , that had expansion with similar size published in 2011. In my collection I have 51st State, Gosu and Innovation. Each of these games has different way of integrating expansion.

The New Era is stand-alone expansion to 51th State. It can also be played with 51 State by simply shuffling both decks.

The deck for Gosu base game has 100 card, which consists from 5 clans, 20 cards each. Gosu:Kamakor's deck also has 100 card, which consists from another 5 clans, 20 cards each. Before playing players choose 5 clans from 10 and shuffle into single deck with 100 cards. There are 252 different ways that 5 clans can be chosen, and such choice greatly influences gameplay by introducing new: card abilities, alternative win conditions, potential card combos etc. But one thing is unchanged - deck size. It influences how often deck reshuffled, how many different abilities and combos player have to take under consideration, each of them is at least quadratic (up to exponential) with regard of of deck size.
So when playing Gosu + Gosu:Kamakor, there are various deck configurations, but complexity is almost equal to that from base game, Difference comes from more complicated abilities on cards from expansion not from number of cards used.
As side effect 5 clan that wasn't chosen can also be played, even at the same time (if you have any spare counters for activation and victory tokens).
"First" and "second" deck can be played several times in row until players are tired with the configuration.

In Innovation base there are 10 decks with total 105 cards used in game. First version of Echoes rules (called OLD thereafter) used 103 -169 cards(depending of number of players) in 10 decks. Revised rules (called NEW thereafter) used all 210 cards in 20 decks grouped in 10 ages.

(There is lengthly enumeration of each system properties below, so you can probably skip several paragraphs to "HERE")

There are several properties of draw system,(I my opinion are benificial to the game), which all are in draw system of base game, but not entirely in either of draw systems of Echoes.

1) Quick game setup. Advantage is obvious.
(++)Base. Shuffle 10 decks. Take stadard achivemnet. deal starting hands. go!
(--)OLD Echoes. Prepare 10 decks taking cards in special proportion form 20 previously shuffled decks. Shuffle 10 deck, take achievemnets, deal staring hands. Go! Very Slow and unwieldy. There were optimizations of procedure , but it didn't help much.
(+) NEW echoes - similar to Base but twice the work with shuffling.

2) Consistent ratio of cards from Echoes used from decks.
(neutral) Base. Ratio of Echoes used obviously 0%
(+) OLD Echoes ratio in decks is depending on number players from 33% (2 Player,ages 2-9) to 44% (5 players, age 1). Ratio of cards used in play statically should be close to ratio in decks.
(+-) NEW echoes. Ration in decks are 0% and 100%, but depending on cards drawn, play-style etc. draw system may be used( even exploited) to reach ratio close to 0% or to 100% of Echoes used.

3) Card drawing should be quick. Players shouldn't have problem determining and controlling, which card to draw.
(++) Base. The only rule is "when pile is empty draw from next highest pile"
(+-) OLD echoes, as in base but players can see backs of the cards to see whenever they are from Echoes or Base. Messy card-counting.
(+-) NEW Echoes - Draw rule isn't very hard. But if you have Echoes card in hand you cannot normally draw Echoes (without transfer form other player,board score etc.) So often player is forced to use Echoes card to free " Echoes space" in hand, leading to suboptimal and predictable play.

4) Cards are referring to each other. Players should have chance to play card cycle and build strategy for it. Cards facilitating specal achevment should be available.
(+) Base - 9 cards from Base go to standard achievement are completely unavailable to use them in other way.
(--) OLD Echoes - There is less than 2% chance that all pieces of Saxophone alternate win are taken into deck. Similarly not all
(+-) NEW Echoes - Potentially all cards from Echoes CAN be drawn. But if Base deck becomes empty cards from echoes cannot be drawn anymore.

5) Players can expect good and equal color mix. No color should be excluded.
(+) Base - 9 cards from Base go to standard achievement are completly unavailable to use them in other way. So proportions of colors are 11%,22%,22%,22%,22% for ages 2-9
(--) OLD echoes - There is possibility for a color to be completely unavailable in some ages.
(+-) NEW Echoes - Potentially color mix is even better than in base, but as in 4)
color mix may depend on echoes card drawn before Base card.

6) Players should expect good mix of abilities ,and icon on cards.
(++) Base - Good and tested, influenced only by taking out statnard achievements
(--)OLD echoes - Random and uneven (as in 4) and 5) )
(+-)NEW Echoes - Potentially good (as in 4) and 5) )

(HERE)

But Base game has one serious disadvantage, after playing several games decks are completely known and very predictable.

So what is solution?. Prepare deck according to points below
1) Take 105 card from Base and Echoes. 15 from age 1 and 10 from ages 2-10. All chosen cards from same age are treated as one deck.
2) Half of cards should be from base, half from Echoes, 52 cards Echoes cards and 53 Base cards or vice versa. There may be other good proportions. I've chosen 50% to make point 5) easier
3) Use normal Base card drawing rules. There is a choice of allowing checking cards backs in piles or not. I don't know any card sleeves with opaque backs with numbers. So probably it is better to allow this.
4) Make sure that cards cycles are either completely in, or completely out. Card cycles in Base + Echoes : (Software,Robotics,A.I.), (Saxophone,Bell,Flute,Piano), (Paper,Scissors,Rock), (Radio Telescope, A.I.)
4b)Make some decision what to do with cards referring special achievements. In base game such cards are one-per-color and all in different ages (I chose all 5 such cards from base to deck, and none from Echoes)
5) In each age should be 2 cards of each color ( 1st age - 3 cards). I choose 1 card from Base and Echoes in each color in each age 2-9 .In age 1 colors have an additional Base or Echoes card.
6) Make some arbitrary but "fair" decisions how to distribute icons , abilities, special win conditions.

Some remarks about setup and Playing.
Standard achievemnet should be taken randomly from Base and Echoes

There is decision whenever use all special achievements, or only 5 that are corresponding to cards chosen in 4b).

Choose whenever require additional achievement to win (I recommend to do so)

Such prepared deck should have most of good sides of playing with the Base game, but should be quite different.

If you have additional set of special achievement or you use only 5 special achievements, rest of cards can be used to play another game in the same time.

When playing with Figures, use rules for drawing and setup Figures cards as playing with Base + Figures.


My decklists:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0Av866IWVb2zPdGF...

First Deck
Spoiler (click to reveal)

Tools (Base Blue 1)
Writing (Base Blue 1)
Dice (Echoes Blue 1)
Sailing (Base Green 1)
The Wheel (Base Green 1)
Umbrella (Echoes Green 1)
City States (Base Purple 1)
Bell (Echoes Purple 1)
Flute (Echoes Purple 1)
Metalworking (Base Red 1)
Bangle (Echoes Red 1)
Candles (Echoes Red 1)
Domestication (Base Yellow 1)
Masonry (Base Yellow 1) Monument
Chopsticks (Echoes Yellow 1)
Calendar (Base Blue 2)
Lever (Echoes Blue 2)
Mapmaking (Base Green 2)
Glassblowing (Echoes Green 2)
Philosophy (Base Purple 2)
Pagoda (Echoes Purple 2)
Construction (Base Red 2) Empire
Crossbow (Echoes Red 2)
Canal Building (Base Yellow 2)
Watermill (Echoes Yellow 2)
Translation (Base Blue 3) World
Almanac (Echoes Blue 3)
Compass (Base Green 3)
Homing Pigeons (Echoes Green 3)
Feudalism (Base Purple 3)
Sunglasses (Echoes Purple 3)
Optics (Base Red 3)
Katana (Echoes Red 3)
Machinery (Base Yellow 3)
Sandpaper (Echoes Yellow 3)
Printing Press (Base Blue 4)
Telescope (Echoes Blue 4)
Invention (Base Green 4) Wonder
Chintz (Echoes Green 4)
Enterprise (Base Purple 4)
Toilet (Echoes Purple 4)
Gunpowder (Base Red 4)
Shuriken (Echoes Red 4)
Anatomy (Base Yellow 4)
Pencil (Echoes Yellow 4)
Chemistry (Base Blue 5)
Thermometer (Echoes Blue 5)
Banking (Base Green 5)
Seed Drill (Echoes Green 5)
Astronomy (Base Purple 5) Universe
Piano (Echoes Purple 5)
The Pirate Code (Base Red 5)
Coke (Echoes Red 5)
Steam Engine (Base Yellow 5)
Pressure Cooker (Echoes Yellow 5)
Atomic Theory (Base Blue 6)
Bifocals (Echoes Blue 6)
Classification (Base Green 6)
Steamboat (Echoes Green 6)
Emancipation (Base Purple 6)
Indian Clubs (Echoes Purple 6)
Machine Tools (Base Red 6)
Shrapnel (Echoes Red 6)
Canning (Base Yellow 6)
Morphine (Echoes Yellow 6)
Evolution (Base Blue 7)
Typewriter (Echoes Blue 7)
Bicycle (Base Green 7)
Jeans (Echoes Green 7)
Lighting (Base Purple 7)
Saxophone (Echoes Purple 7)
Combustion (Base Red 7)
Rubber (Echoes Red 7)
Sanitation (Base Yellow 7)
Fertilizer (Echoes Yellow 7)
Quantum Theory (Base Blue 8)
Radio Telescope (Echoes Blue 8)
Corporations (Base Green 8)
Sliced Bread (Echoes Green 8)
Empiricism (Base Purple 8)
Crossword (Echoes Purple 8)
Mobility (Base Red 8)
Parachute (Echoes Red 8)
Antibiotics (Base Yellow 8)
Air Conditioner (Echoes Yellow 8)
Computers (Base Blue 9)
Laser (Echoes Blue 9)
Satellites (Base Green 9)
Credit Card (Echoes Green 9)
Services (Base Purple 9)
Karaoke (Echoes Purple 9)
Fission (Base Red 9)
Helicopter (Echoes Red 9)
Suburbia (Base Yellow 9)
ATM (Echoes Yellow 9)
Software (Base Blue 10)
Human Genome (Echoes Blue 10)
Self Service (Base Green 10)
GPS (Echoes Green 10)
A. I. (Base Purple 10)
Puzzle Cube (Echoes Purple 10)
Robotics (Base Red 10)
Camcorder (Echoes Red 10)
Stem Cells (Base Yellow 10)
Cell Phone (Echoes Yellow 10)


Second Deck (Simply cards not chosen for First Deck)
Spoiler (click to reveal)

Pottery (Base Blue 1)
Perfume (Echoes Blue 1)
Ruler (Echoes Blue 1)
Comb (Echoes Green 1)
Clothing (Base Green 1)
Ice Skates (Echoes Green 1)
Puppet (Echoes Purple 1)
Mysticism (Base Purple 1)
Code Of Laws (Base Purple 1)
Plumbing (Echoes Red 1)
Archery (Base Red 1)
Oars (Base Red 1)
Soap (Echoes Yellow 1)
Noodles (Echoes Yellow 1)
Argiculture (Base Yellow 1)
Mathematics (Base Blue 2)
Linguistics (Echoes Blue 2)
Currency (Base Green 2)
Scissors (Echoes Green 2)
Monotheism (Base Purple 2)
Chaturanga (Echoes Purple 2)
Road Building (Base Red 2)
Horseshoes (Echoes Red 2)
Fermenting (Base Yellow 2)
Toothbrush (Echoes Yellow 2)
Alchemy (Base Blue 3)
Magnifying Glass (Echoes Blue 3)
Paper (Base Green 3)
Charitable Trust (Echoes Green 3)
Education (Base Purple 3)
Novel (Echoes Purple 3) Supremacy
Liquid Fire (Base Red 3)
Engineering (Echoes Red 3)
Medicine (Base Yellow 3)
Deodorant (Echoes Yellow 3)
Experimantation (Base Blue 4)
Slide Rule (Echoes Blue 4)
Navigation (Base Green 4)
Globe (Echoes Green 4)
Reformation (Base Purple 4)
Clock (Echoes Purple 4)
Colonialism (Base Red 4)
Kobukson (Echoes Red 4)
Perspective (Base Yellow 4)
Barometer (Echoes Yellow 4) Destiny
Physics (Base Blue 5)
Lightning Rod (Echoes Blue 5)
Measurement (Base Green 5)
Palampore (Echoes Green 5) Wealth
Societes (Base Purple 5)
Tuning Fork (Echoes Purple 5)
Coal (Base Red 5)
Octant (Echoes Red 5)
Statistics (Base Yellow 5)
Stove (Echoes Yellow 5)
Encyclopedia (Base Blue 6)
Stethoscope (Echoes Blue 6)
Metric System (Base Green 6)
Hot Air Baloon (Echoes Green 6)
Democracy (Base Purple 6)
Kaleidoscope (Echoes Purple 6)
Industralisation (Base Red 6)
Loom (Echoes Red 6) Heritage
Vaccination (Base Yellow 6)
Dentures (Echoes Yellow 6)
Publications (Base Blue 7)
Photography (Echoes Blue 7) History
Electricity (Base Green 7)
Telegraph (Echoes Green 7)
Railroad (Base Purple 7)
Ice Cream (Echoes Purple 7)
Exposives (Base Red 7)
Machine Gun (Echoes Red 7)
Refrigeration (Base Yellow 7)
Elevator (Echoes Yellow 7)
Rocketry (Base Blue 8)
X-Ray (Echoes Blue 8)
Mass Media (Base Green 8)
Nylon (Echoes Green 8)
Socialism (Base Purple 8)
Television (Echoes Purple 8)
Flight (Base Red 8)
Bandage (Echoes Red 8)
Skyscrapers (Base Yellow 8)
Tractor (Echoes Yellow 8)
Genetics (Base Blue 9)
Calculator (Echoes Blue 9)
Collaboration (Base Green 9)
Email (Echoes Green 9)
Specialization (Base Purple 9)
Rock (Echoes Purple 9)
Composites (Base Red 9)
Jet (Echoes Red 9)
Ecology (Base Yellow 9)
Wristwatch (Echoes Yellow 9)
Bioengineering (Base Blue 10)
Artificial Heart (Echoes Blue 10)
Databases (Base Green 10)
Flash Drive (Echoes Green 10)
The Internet (Base Purple 10)
Sudoku (Echoes Purple 10)
Miniaturization (Base Red 10)
Social Networking (Echoes Red 10)
Globalization (Base Yellow 10)
MP3 (Echoes Yellow 10)
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Rafał Kruczek
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Forecast is very good mechanics in game, but has some properties that are not welcome by some players:
- when a player has many cards in Forecast it can slow decicion process
- it favors skilled player.
- it has high learning curve
- when a player uses many cards from forecast, his turn can take very long and have many effects in comparition to turns without forecasting.
Of course most of this properties can be perceived as advantages,but nevertheless I prepared and tested a Forecast free mix.

Spoiler (click to reveal)

Pottery (Base Blue 1)
Dice (Echoes Blue 1)
Ruler (Echoes Blue 1)
Sailing (Base Green 1)
The Wheel (Base Green 1)
Umbrella (Echoes Green 1)
Code Of Laws (Base Purple 1)
Mysticism (Base Purple 1)
Puppet (Echoes Purple 1)
Archery (Base Red 1)
Metalworking (Base Red 1)
Candles (Echoes Red 1)
Masonry (Base Yellow 1) Monument
Chopsticks (Echoes Yellow 1)
Noodles (Echoes Yellow 1)
Mathematics (Base Blue 2)
Lever (Echoes Blue 2)
Currency (Base Green 2)
Scissors (Echoes Green 2)
Monotheism (Base Purple 2)
Philosophy (Base Purple 2)
Construction (Base Red 2) Empire
Crossbow (Echoes Red 2)
Canal Building (Base Yellow 2)
Toothbrush (Echoes Yellow 2)
Translation (Base Blue 3) World
Magnifying Glass (Echoes Blue 3)
Paper (Base Green 3)
Charitable Trust (Echoes Green 3)
Education (Base Purple 3)
Sunglasses (Echoes Purple 3)
Optics (Base Red 3)
Optics (Base Red 3)
Medicine (Base Yellow 3)
Deodorant (Echoes Yellow 3)
Experimantation (Base Blue 4)
Slide Rule (Echoes Blue 4)
Invention (Base Green 4) Wonder
Chintz (Echoes Green 4)
Clock (Echoes Purple 4)
Toilet (Echoes Purple 4)
Colonialism (Base Red 4)
Kobukson (Echoes Red 4)
Anatomy (Base Yellow 4)
Perspective (Base Yellow 4)
Chemistry (Base Blue 5)
Lightning Rod (Echoes Blue 5)
Measurement (Base Green 5)
Seed Drill (Echoes Green 5)
Astronomy (Base Purple 5) Universe
Piano (Echoes Purple 5)
Coal (Base Red 5)
The Pirate Code (Base Red 5)
Pressure Cooker (Echoes Yellow 5)
Stove (Echoes Yellow 5)
Encyclopedia (Base Blue 6)
Stethoscope (Echoes Blue 6)
Metric System (Base Green 6)
Steamboat (Echoes Green 6)
Emancipation (Base Purple 6)
Kaleidoscope (Echoes Purple 6)
Industralisation (Base Red 6)
Shrapnel (Echoes Red 6)
Vaccination (Base Yellow 6)
Dentures (Echoes Yellow 6)
Evolution (Base Blue 7)
Typewriter (Echoes Blue 7)
Electricity (Base Green 7)
Telegraph (Echoes Green 7)
Lighting (Base Purple 7)
Saxophone (Echoes Purple 7)
Exposives (Base Red 7)
Rubber (Echoes Red 7)
Refrigeration (Base Yellow 7)
Elevator (Echoes Yellow 7)
Quantum Theory (Base Blue 8)
Radio Telescope (Echoes Blue 8)
Mass Media (Base Green 8)
Nylon (Echoes Green 8)
Empiricism (Base Purple 8)
Television (Echoes Purple 8)
Flight (Base Red 8)
Bandage (Echoes Red 8)
Skyscrapers (Base Yellow 8)
Air Conditioner (Echoes Yellow 8)
Computers (Base Blue 9)
Calculator (Echoes Blue 9)
Collaboration (Base Green 9)
Satellites (Base Green 9)
Services (Base Purple 9)
Rock (Echoes Purple 9)
Helicopter (Echoes Red 9)
Jet (Echoes Red 9)
Suburbia (Base Yellow 9)
ATM (Echoes Yellow 9)
Software (Base Blue 10)
Human Genome (Echoes Blue 10)
Databases (Base Green 10)
Self Service (Base Green 10)
A. I. (Base Purple 10)
Puzzle Cube (Echoes Purple 10)
Robotics (Base Red 10)
Camcorder (Echoes Red 10)
Cell Phone (Echoes Yellow 10)
MP3 (Echoes Yellow 10)
Tools (Base Blue 1)
Writing (Base Blue 1)
Perfume (Echoes Blue 1)
Clothing (Base Green 1)
Comb (Echoes Green 1)
Ice Skates (Echoes Green 1)
City States (Base Purple 1)
Bell (Echoes Purple 1)
Flute (Echoes Purple 1)
Oars (Base Red 1)
Bangle (Echoes Red 1)
Plumbing (Echoes Red 1)
Argiculture (Base Yellow 1)
Domestication (Base Yellow 1)
Soap (Echoes Yellow 1)
Calendar (Base Blue 2)
Linguistics (Echoes Blue 2)
Mapmaking (Base Green 2)
Glassblowing (Echoes Green 2)
Chaturanga (Echoes Purple 2)
Pagoda (Echoes Purple 2)
Road Building (Base Red 2)
Horseshoes (Echoes Red 2)
Fermenting (Base Yellow 2)
Watermill (Echoes Yellow 2)
Alchemy (Base Blue 3)
Almanac (Echoes Blue 3)
Compass (Base Green 3)
Homing Pigeons (Echoes Green 3)
Feudalism (Base Purple 3)
Novel (Echoes Purple 3) Supremacy
Katana (Echoes Red 3)
Katana (Echoes Red 3)
Machinery (Base Yellow 3)
Sandpaper (Echoes Yellow 3)
Printing Press (Base Blue 4)
Telescope (Echoes Blue 4)
Navigation (Base Green 4)
Globe (Echoes Green 4)
Enterprise (Base Purple 4)
Reformation (Base Purple 4)
Gunpowder (Base Red 4)
Shuriken (Echoes Red 4)
Barometer (Echoes Yellow 4) Destiny
Pencil (Echoes Yellow 4)
Physics (Base Blue 5)
Thermometer (Echoes Blue 5)
Banking (Base Green 5)
Palampore (Echoes Green 5) Wealth
Societes (Base Purple 5)
Tuning Fork (Echoes Purple 5)
Coke (Echoes Red 5)
Octant (Echoes Red 5)
Statistics (Base Yellow 5)
Steam Engine (Base Yellow 5)
Atomic Theory (Base Blue 6)
Bifocals (Echoes Blue 6)
Classification (Base Green 6)
Hot Air Baloon (Echoes Green 6)
Democracy (Base Purple 6)
Indian Clubs (Echoes Purple 6)
Machine Tools (Base Red 6)
Loom (Echoes Red 6) Heritage
Canning (Base Yellow 6)
Morphine (Echoes Yellow 6)
Publications (Base Blue 7)
Photography (Echoes Blue 7) History
Bicycle (Base Green 7)
Jeans (Echoes Green 7)
Railroad (Base Purple 7)
Ice Cream (Echoes Purple 7)
Combustion (Base Red 7)
Machine Gun (Echoes Red 7)
Sanitation (Base Yellow 7)
Fertilizer (Echoes Yellow 7)
Rocketry (Base Blue 8)
X-Ray (Echoes Blue 8)
Corporations (Base Green 8)
Sliced Bread (Echoes Green 8)
Socialism (Base Purple 8)
Crossword (Echoes Purple 8)
Mobility (Base Red 8)
Parachute (Echoes Red 8)
Antibiotics (Base Yellow 8)
Tractor (Echoes Yellow 8)
Genetics (Base Blue 9)
Laser (Echoes Blue 9)
Credit Card (Echoes Green 9)
Email (Echoes Green 9)
Specialization (Base Purple 9)
Karaoke (Echoes Purple 9)
Composites (Base Red 9)
Fission (Base Red 9)
Ecology (Base Yellow 9)
Wristwatch (Echoes Yellow 9)
Bioengineering (Base Blue 10)
Artificial Heart (Echoes Blue 10)
Flash Drive (Echoes Green 10)
GPS (Echoes Green 10)
The Internet (Base Purple 10)
Sudoku (Echoes Purple 10)
Miniaturization (Base Red 10)
Social Networking (Echoes Red 10)
Globalization (Base Yellow 10)
Stem Cells (Base Yellow 10)
 
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