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The Guns of Gettysburg» Forums » Rules

Subject: Double Movement for Attacking Units rss

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Paul Horvath
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Looking at rule 15 I have a couple of questions.

1) Can an attacking unit that loses and then withdraws use March movement during a multi-hour turn?

2) Can a March/Field Works token be used to give a previous attacking unit an additional movement step during March movement?

I'm thinking no on 2, but I'm not so sure about 1. thanks
 
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Seth Owen
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Horvo wrote:
Looking at rule 15 I have a couple of questions.

1) Can an attacking unit that loses and then withdraws use March movement during a multi-hour turn?

2) Can a March/Field Works token be used to give a previous attacking unit an additional movement step during March movement?

I'm thinking no on 2, but I'm not so sure about 1. thanks


There are never attacks during multi-hour turns. Attacks can only occur during a turn with an Attack posture and those turns are automatically one hour long.
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David Hansen
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The answer to your second question is no.

From page 12 of the rulebook:

Quote:
Playing a march / field works token can give a +1 distance bonus to 3 blocks making march moves. This can include blocks that already made reinforcement or withdrawal moves and would not normally be able to move twice. Such blocks can make 1-step march moves.


 
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Paul Horvath
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Just to be sure, does that include attacking units that lost and then withdrew? Is it implicit that it's only units that moved during the Withdrawal or Reinforcement phases? thanks
 
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David Hansen
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Horvo wrote:
Just to be sure, does that include attacking units that lost and then withdrew? Is it implicit that it's only units that moved during the Withdrawal or Reinforcement phases? thanks


Yes; the rule extends this benefit to blocks that made withdrawal or reinforcement moves only.
 
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John Cullen

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For a block to be qualified to move during March Move it must not be adjacent to an enemy block (pivoting being an exception) nor in the field of fire of an enemy block. Period. If a block that attacked during the attack phase of WARM found itself fulfilling these requirements, it could March Move. This is my understanding. Further, the last paragraph/sentence of rule 15 is, "A block that makes an attack move and loses has to make a withdrawal move in step 9 of the attack procedure." This is clearly intended to be an example of yet another situation in which a block can "move" twice; once under attack and once under withdrawal. However, it does clearly specify that the block that has attacked and lost has made a withdrawal move and thus appears to qualify for the exemption stated in the previous paragraph and thus be capable of taking the +1 distance bonus when playing a march/field works token during the March Move phase. Presuming, of course, that it qualifies for making a March Move in the first place. Again, this seems to me to be the case.

Edit; Let me retract a bit. OK, rule 10, fundamentally you can only move a block once per "action phase" during either the Withdrawal, Attack, Reinforcements, or Move phases. Unless otherwise specified in rule 15. The confusion is/may be that in rule 15 an attacking block that loses is stated to preform a withdrawal move and therefore appears to qualify it for one of the previous exemptions. But that doesn't work because, if so, it would qualify it for three moves; Attack, Withdrawal, and March. I think. Maybe.
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MLeis
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Horvo wrote:
2) Can a March/Field Works token be used to give a previous attacking unit an additional movement step during March movement?
I'm not 100% sure but following the rules word for word it seems to me that it is allowed.

Page 12, left column:

"A block that makes an attack move and loses has to make a withdrawal move in step 9 of the attack procedure."

and:

"Playing a march / field works token can give a +1 distance bonus to 3 blocks making march moves. This can include blocks that already made reinforcement or withdrawal moves and would not normally be able to move twice."
(Edit: It is not allowed, see Bowen's reply below.)
 
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Rich James
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Blocks cannot move twice, except under specific situations. One is where an attacking block loses its attack (it must immediately withdraw). Other cases occur when the turn is multi hour: blocks may be able to march move after a reinforcement entry move and blocks can march move after a withdrawal move.

As was already mentioned, turns with attacks are always one hour long. So there is no case where an attacking block can also march move in the same turn. Remember that losing defending blocks must withdraw in their own turn. If the losing block is a 1st player block (normally Union), there is a chance it would withdraw during a multi hour turn (his next turn will occur after a Turn Duration phase). Those are blocks that can both withdraw and march in the same turn, if it is a multi hour turn.
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MLeis
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arjisme wrote:
Blocks cannot move twice, except under specific situations. One is where an attacking block loses its attack (it must immediately withdraw). Other cases occur when the turn is multi hour: blocks may be able to march move after a reinforcement entry move and blocks can march move after a withdrawal move.
Are you saying that the playing of march tokens to march move units that withdrew or made a reinforcement entry that turn is only possible in a multi-hour turn? I don't get the same impression from the rules as they say: "This can include blocks that already made reinforcement or withdrawal moves and would not normally be able to move twice." but I could be wrong of course.
 
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Rich James
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Fielmann wrote:
arjisme wrote:
Blocks cannot move twice, except under specific situations. One is where an attacking block loses its attack (it must immediately withdraw). Other cases occur when the turn is multi hour: blocks may be able to march move after a reinforcement entry move and blocks can march move after a withdrawal move.
Are you saying that the playing of march tokens to march move units that withdrew or made a reinforcement entry that turn is only possible in a multi-hour turn? I don't get the same impression from the rules as they say: "This can include blocks that already made reinforcement or withdrawal moves and would not normally be able to move twice." but I could be wrong of course.

Yes, that's what I was saying but now I have to say, I have second thoughts. I think you are right and I've learned something (unless Bowen steps in to say we are both wrong). I see now the paragraph regarding playing a march / field token is not restricted to just multi-hour moves. Nor would that make sense as a withdrawal move is always on the 1st hour of a multi-hour turn. And, for that matter, why allow the 1-step move just in a multi-hour turn?

That paragraph stands alone and is just talking about march / field work tokens and how they can enable a block to move twice. Just like the paragraph that follows it that reiterates that an attacking block must withdraw in step 9 of the attack procedure (thus a case of moving twice).

So I agree with you now that you can play a march token and enable an attacker that withdrew to march move 1 step.

There is a pedantic point though: there is much reference in this rule about moving "twice." I think it really means "move multiple times." Otherwise, an attacker that loses and withdraws and then march moves 1 step by token has moved three times (what John Cullin said above).

Bowen, if you are reading this, can you please clarify?
 
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David Hansen
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My sense is this: you can play a march/field works token during any march move, multi-hour turn or no, to give +1 to three blocks that have not yet moved.

However, the granting of a +1 to a block that has already moved is possible only in a multi-hour turn, and only for blocks that have made reinforcement or withdraw moves in that action phase. This necessarily excludes blocks that attacked during that action phase, as attacks can only be made in a one-hour turn.
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Rich James
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I hear you, but the immediate withdrawal in the case of an attacker losing is a bit of a sticky one. Step 9 calls for an immediate withdrawal and references rule 14. So is that considered a withdrawal move or not?

It might be best to read the rules literally and trust what we read. As mentioned, Rule 15 refers to cases where blocks can move twice. It tells us that a withdrawal after an attack loss is considered a separate withdrawal move (and, therefore, is the 2nd move for that block). The rules don't provide for moving three times in a turn. So on that basis it would seem that a losing attacker cannot march move after his withdrawal in the same turn.

Obviously, I keep going back and forth on this. Ugh! I'm thinking via forum.
 
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David Hansen
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Paging Mr. Simmons.
 
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David Hansen
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Here's the real question: during an attack move in which the attacker loses, did he in fact make an attack move? Or is it the mandatory withdrawal move that makes the 'attacking' blocks ineligible to move a second time and, therefore, eligible to receive the +1 granted by the march/field works token?
 
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Rachel Simmons
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A march move after an attack move is not permiited, even (especially?) if a withdrawal followed the attack. Attack-withdrawal-march would be three moves, and while the rules sometimes permit a block to move twice, there is no dispensation for a block to ever move three times.
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David Hansen
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Boom goes the dynamite.
 
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Scipio O.
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DeathMosque wrote:
The answer to your second question is no.

From page 12 of the rulebook:

Quote:
Playing a march / field works token can give a +1 distance bonus to 3 blocks making march moves. This can include blocks that already made reinforcement or withdrawal moves and would not normally be able to move twice. Such blocks can make 1-step march moves.




Seems to me that the text is clear here, that it would not apply to blocks using attack moves.

There was some confusion in replies because the OP did suggest that an attack could take place in a multi-hour turn, which is not correct. March tokens are not restricted to multi-hour turns, however.
 
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Chuck Parrott
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I think that rule 15 is quite specific and outlines exactly what takes place. It covers all the instances where a block can use 2 types of movement (not 3) in a single phase, multi-hour or not. It then details each situation.

Multi-hour, reinforcement move followed by march move.
Multi-hour, withdrawal move (mandatory or voluntary) followed by march move with loss of 1 hour towards movement time.
Multi or single hour, spending a march token after making a withdrawal, reinforcement, or march move.
Single hour (because of attack orders) a block that makes an attack move and loses has to make a mandatory withdrawal.

Note in the case of the last condition, the block has made 2 types of movement for the phase and is not eligible to use a march token. If a block doesn't fit one of the 4 conditions above, it cannot move twice in a single phase.

Edit: Bowen snuck in his response while I was typing ninja
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John Cullen

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cparrott wrote:
I think that rule 15 is quite specific and outlines exactly what takes place. ...


I disagree with you here. As I read you, you lead with your conclusion, as stated above. And you follow with your premises, which I fundamentally agree with. However, I don't think that the conclusion necessarily follows. (In fact, it doesn't follow, it leads, but that's beside the point.) I think it quite reasonable for someone to read in the final paragraph of rule 15, "A block that makes an attack move and loses has to make a withdrawal move", and to recall in the immediately proceeding paragraph, "This can include blocks that already made reinforcement or withdrawal moves", and conclude that a block that made an attack move and lost can be moved in March Movement (at least when a march/field works token is played). They would be wrong. Completely wrong. But I think I can say, "Ah, I see where your confusion lies. And it's a legitimate confusion. Let me explain it to you. You can't move three times. The way you are reading it allows you to move three times. Two times, under exceptional circumstances, is the max you can move. Let us hope that in future editions of these rules this rule will be clarified." That's all I'm saying. The rules are not as clear as they could be. They could be clearer.
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Chuck Parrott
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We'll have to agree to disagree. I read a section that says a block can normally only use 1 type of movement on a turn, here are the special cases where a block can use 2 types of movement. No where does it imply to me that you can use 3 types of movement in a turn.
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