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Subject: Playtester Questions: Cards of the Base Game? rss

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Alan Gerding
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An important playtester question. We can only include about 45 cards in the base game (this includes the Leader Cards). What characters should we include?

Let me simplify your suggested lists, as the following characters will indeed be included:

-Bomber
-President
-Martyr
-Daughter

-Engineer
-Doctor
-Tinkerer
-Nurse

That takes care of 8 of the slots, leaving the remaining card count to 37. Please remember we have to make room for the basic Red/Blue Team cards, but how many?

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Caitlin
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Oh boy, do I have opinions on this!

These are CARDS we are counting, correct? Not ROLES (meaning, if I say "Shy Guy", that counts as two cards)?

Question first, how do you plan on releasing the other cards? In "packs" of like 10-20 cards each or something? For example, Monster Pack, Grey Pack, etc. Or...?
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Steven Duran
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Since they will be limited, the cards should definitely be ones that have interesting interactions with each other.
 
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Alan Gerding
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nolemonplease wrote:
Oh boy, do I have opinions on this!

These are CARDS we are counting, correct? Not ROLES (meaning, if I say "Shy Guy", that counts as two cards)?

Question first, how do you plan on releasing the other cards? In "packs" of like 10-20 cards each or something? For example, Monster Pack, Grey Pack, etc. Or...?


Yes, these are cards. So if you mention a character that is on both Red and Blue teams, this counts as 2 cards.

How the other cards will be released is a whole 'nother discussion, probably best for another forum. However, it will be one of the following methods:
-small non-randomized booster packs (think Magic cards, but without the randomness)
-full 52 card decks of expansion cards
-different core packs (each one comes with the basic prez and bomber, but with different characters)
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Clyde W
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So, with 37 slots, I'm feeling...

5x Blue/Red Team +10
Blue/Red Spy +2
Negotiator +2
Fugitive +2
Shy +2
Fool +2
Mayor +2
Dealer +2
Identity Thief +2
Psychologist +2
Medic +2
Gambler +1
PI +1
Hot Potato +1
Intern / Rival +2
Victim / Survivor +2
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Alan Rqthstar
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clydeiii wrote:
So, with 37 slots, I'm feeling...

5x Blue/Red Team +10
2x Blue/Red Spy +2
Negotiator +2
Fugitive +2
Shy +2
Fool +2
Mayor +2
Dealer +2
Identity Thief +2
Psychologist +2
Medic +2
Gambler +1
PI +1
Hot Potato +1
Intern / Rival +2
Victim / Survivor +2

Some of these are my most-played cards too. I think it's 39 cards though, since 2x Blue/Red Spy makes 4.

Here's some cards I'd want to cram in though. Possibly even at the expense of leader cards? The leader cards weren't in the P&P copy I downloaded and I haven't missed them.

- Sniper / Target / Decoy - a great way to fill out a role set with an odd number of players
- MI6 - same, but maybe not necessary with PI.
- Security - this is a popular idea for a card but I haven't seen it really used, so I am not sure
- Purple card (Amnesiac / Drunk / Whichever) for balance when burying a card
- Enforcer
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Clyde W
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I didn't mean 2x Blue/Red Spy...Just one copy should do.
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Caitlin
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clydeiii wrote:
So, with 37 slots, I'm feeling...

5x Blue/Red Team +10
Blue/Red Spy +2
Negotiator +2
Fugitive +2
Shy +2
Fool +2
Mayor +2
Dealer +2
Identity Thief +2
Psychologist +2
Medic +2
Gambler +1
PI +1
Hot Potato +1
Intern / Rival +2
Victim / Survivor +2

This is a good start. Spies are a must.

Other musts on my list, which also match with Clyde's:
- Negotiator
- Fugitive
- Private Investigator

I think Shy Guys are also great to include. The first "condition giving" power I usually introduce is the Criminal.

One of the roles to help with room control would be good. Mayor or Nazi. Mayor would be nicer since it would help more with the even roomed games.

I would also add Intern / Rival / Survivor / Victim. More greys. I have to admit I much prefer Romeo / Juliet / Maid / Butler (we played with those at Origins), but those aren't as "basic" as the other set.

MI6 for a little bit more complex grey.

I would definitely leave out anything that seems a bit fuzzy, or have hard defined rules. Paparazzi just controls how you act, nothing else. What exactly does being "seduced" or "hypnotized" mean again? If I'm the Devil, what do I say if you want to co-reveal? No, and then hold out my card?

I still love the Trader role.
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mfl134
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The ones we used regularly:

Bomber/President
Martyr/Daughter
Engineer/Doctor
Tinkerer/Nurse
Spy
Negotiator
Shy Guy
Fool
Fugitive
Red/Blue

Amnesiac
Moby/Ahab
Wife/Mistress
Intern/Rival
Survivor/Victim
Target/Sniper/Decoy
MI6
Hot Potato
Zombie
 
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mfl134
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mfl134 wrote:
The ones we used regularly:

Bomber/President
Martyr/Daughter
Engineer/Doctor
Tinkerer/Nurse
Spy
Negotiator
Shy Guy
Fool
Fugitive
Red/Blue

Amnesiac
Moby/Ahab
Wife/Mistress
Intern/Rival
Survivor/Victim
Target/Sniper/Decoy
MI6
Hot Potato
Zombie


I forgot security and bouncers.
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Caitlin
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While interesting, I think Moby/Ahab/Wife/Mistress are advanced roles. And I think Target/Sniper/Decoy more often turns into a mini-game inside of whatever roleset gets chosen.
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David Morcerf
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5-6 basic Team of each
Spy
Negotiator
Fugitive
Criminal
Private Investigator
Amnesiac
Hot Potato
Shy Guy
Mayor or Usurper
Psychologist
Security
Bouncer
Agent or Enforcer
2 of the opposing dueling Grey pairs
?
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Clyde W
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clydeiii wrote:
So, with 37 slots, I'm feeling...

4x Blue/Red Team +8
Blue/Red Spy +2
Negotiator +2
Fugitive +2
Shy +2
Fool +2
Mayor +2
Criminal +2
Dealer +2
Identity Thief +2
Psychologist +2
Medic +2
Gambler +1
PI +1
Hot Potato +1
Intern / Rival +2
Victim / Survivor +2
Revised slightly (swapped out a Team pair for a Criminal pair)
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Agent Emme
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Unless you are planning on including Red/Blue team cards in other sets, I'd say you need at least 7 Red Team and 7 Blue Team cards in the base set, allowing for an introduction game of 16 players (14 + Bomber/President).

Don't forget - Other roles involve using the Red and Blue team cards, like Grey Team, Capitalist, and Socialist.
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Caitlin
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I think 4 of each is too little for the base game. If the rulebook suggests a basic game with only President, Bomber, and Teams, you could only fill up a 10 player game that way. Which won't even allow color reveals.
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I agree with clydeiii mostly, but I'd recommend adding 2 spy roles. I think these are fairly complex, but also fairly fun with fugitive and the basic roles.

Most of the rest of these seem simpler than some of the other roles, and so I think they're a good place to start.

6x Blue/Red Team +12
Blue/Red Spy +2
Negotiator +2
Fugitive +2
Shy +2
Fool +2
Mayor +2
Identity Thief +2
Psychologist +2
Medic +2
Gambler +1
PI +1
Hot Potato +1
Intern / Rival +2
Victim / Survivor +2
Spy +2?
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Jarek
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mfl134 wrote:
The ones we used regularly:

Bomber/President
Martyr/Daughter
Engineer/Doctor
Tinkerer/Nurse
Spy
Negotiator
Shy Guy
Fool
Fugitive
Red/Blue

Amnesiac
Moby/Ahab
Wife/Mistress
Intern/Rival
Survivor/Victim
Target/Sniper/Decoy
MI6
Hot Potato
Zombie

I like Mike's Set the most (even without Security or Bouncers).
Perhaps add Agents or something that works best for small groups of players?
Oh and Koniu will complain if we won't have Ninja's
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JT Call
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clydeiii wrote:
So, with 37 slots, I'm feeling...

5x Blue/Red Team +10
Blue/Red Spy +2
Negotiator +2
Fugitive +2
Shy +2
Fool +2
Mayor +2
Dealer +2
Identity Thief +2
Psychologist +2
Medic +2
Gambler +1
PI +1
Hot Potato +1
Intern / Rival +2
Victim / Survivor +2


This is pretty good...but why have a psychologist if you have no criminals? I'm guessing it got left out. My variation on the list would look like this:

MUST HAVE:
4x Blue/Red Team +8
Blue/Red Spy +2
Negotiator +2
Fugitive +2
Shy +2

ROUND IT OUT WITH THESE PAIRS:
Agent +2
Medic +2
Mayor +2
Criminal +2
Psychologist +2
Fool +2
Drug Dealer +2

AND THESE GRAYS:
Ahab / Moby +2
Wife / Mistress +2
Nuclear Tyrant +1
Hot Potato +1
MI6 +1
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JT Call
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clydeiii wrote:
[q="clydeiii"] Revised slightly (swapped out a Team pair for a Criminal pair)


I stand corrected.
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Sander Engels
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Doberman wrote:
An important playtester question. We can only include about 45 cards in the base game (this includes the Leader Cards). What characters should we include?

Let me simplify your suggested lists, as the following characters will indeed be included:

-Bomber
-President
-Martyr
-Daughter

-Engineer
-Doctor
-Tinkerer
-Nurse

That takes care of 8 of the slots, leaving the remaining card count to 37. Please remember we have to make room for the basic Red/Blue Team cards, but how many?

Now I'm not sure where the Leader cards are counted. You'll need 10 in total, but do these need to be included in the 37 or not?
As a general remark, I would put a combination of "beginner" roles (for example the already mentioned Shy/Negotiator/Intern/Victim/Rival/Survivor) and a few "advanced" roles (like maybe Security/MadScientist or something like that) in the base edition. It would be good if people can improve the complexity of the game to a certain extent without needing to get an expansion pack. (And then they're hooked and will buy the expansion packs anyway.)

And I think Caitlin's question about how the other cards will be released is a valid one. I could very well imagine having (for example) a pack with Condition and Condition givers with Mime/Devil/Werewolf/Medic/Vampire. And another with a Team Switch theme with Zombie/Conspirator/HotPotato/IDThief. If this is the way you'd like to go, that would maybe also influence which cards you want or don't want to put in the base game.
If you have other ideas about how to release the cards that are not in the base game, that may still influence which cards to put in the base game.
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Philip Migas
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Doberman wrote:
We can only include about 45 cards in the base game (this includes the Leader Cards). What characters should we include?


Since you opened it up to discussion. I am going to challenge this assumption. I would say get rid of 8 leader cards. Only have one per room. Create a chart on one card for every round. I would like to see the maximum number of roles add to the game. I would not mind seeing the 10 leader cards as part of an expansion set.

I want everyone’s list. Whenever the psychologist is added to the list, I keep wanting to add the criminal.
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Clyde W
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Yeah, I'd happily ditch the leader cards. I never even play with them.
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Agent Emme
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I like the Leader cards. I find them very useful in helping me to remember what round it is. I am pretty lost without them.

I think it is a mistake to half-ass the first pack. The advice to only include 4 or 5 Red/Blue team card pairs is terrible. This is a party game where people walk around with cards in their pockets and then sometimes walk off with them at the end of the night. I am guessing this issue will be greatest with the Red/Blue team and the President/Bomber cards because you'll be using them the most with intro games, and first-time gamers won't be as fastidious about returning the cards as serious gamers.

If too many Red/Blue team cards walk away, now you have to buy an entire new pack?

And I personally would feel annoyed at buying a pack that only allows me to make a sparse number of good rolesets. Shy Guy, Negotiator, Fugitive, MI6 are not going to hold my attention and make me want to buy another set. I'd try 2 games of it and probably say "Boring." From what I've seen at conventions, what gets people excited about playing more games are seeing cards like Zombie, Ninja, Devil, Centipede, Bouncer, etc. and exclaiming, "Ooooh what does this do??"

In comparison:

- The base game of Dominion only holds attention for so long, and that game offers 25 unique Kingdom cards

- Ultimate Werewolf: Compact Edition includes ~22 unique roles. Ultimate Werewolf: Ultimate Edition includes ~35 unique roles. There are currently 4 expansion packs on the market.

So I would argue for a basic pack that includes multiple copies of the base 8 roles (President/Daughter/etc), multiple copies of the Leader cards, and many copies of Red/Blue team cards. I'd advertise it as the barebones set, similar to the Dominion Base Cards set.

And then I'd release a pack that is comprised of 45 cards (since that's your limit), some basic roles, some fun/catchy roles.
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Caitlin
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talusproteus wrote:
clydeiii wrote:
So, with 37 slots, I'm feeling...

5x Blue/Red Team +10
Blue/Red Spy +2
Negotiator +2
Fugitive +2
Shy +2
Fool +2
Mayor +2
Dealer +2
Identity Thief +2
Psychologist +2
Medic +2
Gambler +1
PI +1
Hot Potato +1
Intern / Rival +2
Victim / Survivor +2


This is pretty good...but why have a psychologist if you have no criminals? I'm guessing it got left out. My variation on the list would look like this:

MUST HAVE:
4x Blue/Red Team +8
Blue/Red Spy +2
Negotiator +2
Fugitive +2
Shy +2

ROUND IT OUT WITH THESE PAIRS:
Agent +2
Medic +2
Mayor +2
Criminal +2
Psychologist +2
Fool +2
Drug Dealer +2

AND THESE GRAYS:
Ahab / Moby +2
Wife / Mistress +2
Nuclear Tyrant +1
Hot Potato +1
MI6 +1

I thought the same thing about Psychologist, but there's "Shy" from Shy Guy and Identity Thief.
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Clyde W
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mmazala wrote:
I like the Leader cards. I find them very useful in helping me to remember what round it is. I am pretty lost without them.

I think it is a mistake to half-ass the first pack. The advice to only include 4 or 5 Red/Blue team card pairs is terrible. This is a party game where people walk around with cards in their pockets and then sometimes walk off with them at the end of the night. I am guessing this issue will be greatest with the Red/Blue team and the President/Bomber cards because you'll be using them the most with intro games, and first-time gamers won't be as fastidious about returning the cards as serious gamers.

If too many Red/Blue team cards walk away, now you have to buy an entire new pack?

And I personally would feel annoyed at buying a pack that only allows me to make a sparse number of good rolesets. Shy Guy, Negotiator, Fugitive, MI6 are not going to hold my attention and make me want to buy another set. I'd try 2 games of it and probably say "Boring." From what I've seen at conventions, what gets people excited about playing more games are seeing cards like Zombie, Ninja, Devil, Centipede, Bouncer, etc. and exclaiming, "Ooooh what does this do??"

In comparison:

- The base game of Dominion only holds attention for so long, and that game offers 25 unique Kingdom cards

- Ultimate Werewolf: Compact Edition includes ~22 unique roles. Ultimate Werewolf: Ultimate Edition includes ~35 unique roles. There are currently 4 expansion packs on the market.

So I would argue for a basic pack that includes multiple copies of the base 8 roles (President/Daughter/etc), multiple copies of the Leader cards, and many copies of Red/Blue team cards. I'd advertise it as the barebones set, similar to the Dominion Base Cards set.

And then I'd release a pack that is comprised of 45 cards (since that's your limit), some basic roles, some fun/catchy roles.
But what you can say is, "for beginner games, simply treat the Daughter, Tinkerer, etc" cards as "Team" cards, right? Obviously there's a tradeoff here, but I think most people buying the game are going to progress pretty quickly from an "all basics game" to a "fairly advanced", and that is just as important as keeping it basic.

Having said that, 52 cards in the base set, perhaps that should be expanded. Ultimate Werewolf is a good comparison. It plays up to 68 out of the box and has a ton of cards (at least 68, but surely more like 100+). Since this is your "main competition", you need to offer similar value on paper, otherwise there will be many BGG threads complaining about having too few cards. Dominion (which is a Top 25 BGG game and won the SdJ) came with 25 unique cards out of the box (and over 500 cards). Sure, it doesn't really hold up these days to the die-hard Dominion fans, but it sells millions to non-gamers.

Still, if we only have 52 cards in the base set, and 10 of those are leader cards, and only 37 of those can be actual role cards, I think it's good compromise to include fewer team cards and just have moderators use other cards to represent Team cards in a "basics" game. I'd prefer this over including a bunch of Team cards and leaving out the other roles. That is what I as a consumer would prefer.

Ultimately though, I think Emme is right. If you're really dead-set on including only 52 cards of the base pack, just make it the 8 you listed plus all Team cards, and have two or three other packs you can buy. (But this could be seen as if you were releasing the Dominion: Base Cards before Dominion.)
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