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Subject: Shipment from Kaguya is now a reasonable card rss

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Alex Rockwell
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Efficiency Committee lets you get bonus clicks to use to not advance things. But you can still play Shipment from Kaguya and Trick of light.


With Efficiency Committee scored, you can:

1) Install 5/3 agenda.
2) Advance
Efficiency up.
a) Shipment
b) Archived Memories on Shipment
c) Shipment
d) Trick of Light

Score the 5/3.
You can score a 4/2 with one less piece.
You can score a 3/2 with only two pieces (of Shipment/Archived Memories).


****************
Also:
Score Efficiency Committee on a SanSan City Grid.

Next turn:
1) Install 3 difficulty agenda in new server.
2) Advance agenda.
3) Use efficiency tokens, back to 4 clicks.
a) Install 3 difficult agenda on SanSan.
b) Shipment
c) Archived Memories
d) Shipment

Score both agendas! lol.

*****************


In essence, an Efficiency Committee lets you play a pair of Shipments, or Shipment + Archived Memories, as a free Biotic Labor that also adds counters to an ice or trap or something.

You can combine this with Trick of Light as well.
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Drake Villareal
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It's reasonable, to be sure. But is it worth the influence in an HB fast-advance? Especially since nobody does FA like HB does FA.

I'd rather just pump up Arcology AI a bunch tbh.
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I agree, let's put behind us the days of only scoring one agenda per turn out of hand and move to the world of 2xFA :)
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Steven Tu
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I somehow doubt that any of these scenarios will come up too often, so many pieces involved... Though that makes me think I wanna play that cerebral imaging infinite hand size no ice deck even more
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Alejandro G.
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I'm sure Kaguya will count as "advancing" a card and won't be allowed. RULING TIME!
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Alex Rockwell
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xpiredsodapop wrote:
I'm sure Kaguya will count as "advancing" a card and won't be allowed. RULING TIME!


I am certain it wont count as 'advancing' and will be allowed.


Anyway, I dont think its too hard to pull off a reasonable score of a 3/2 using efficiency tokens, and two of Shipment/Archive.
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Roberta Yang
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xpiredsodapop wrote:
I'm sure Kaguya will count as "advancing" a card and won't be allowed. RULING TIME!

They've previously ruled that merely placing advancement tokens doesn't count as advancing (which is why Matrix Analyzer doesn't work properly with Weyland BWBI).
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Jason Wallace
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So shipment from mirrormorph in two agendas, one 5/3, the other 3/2, and using you steps after that you'd win by the end of that turn as you score both (as eff gives you 2 pts already).

Wait, counted wrong, but with two-three shipments from kaguya you could score two 3/2's this way.

The 5/3 trick could also used a Vitruvius counter in place of the archived memories, or even use trick of light twice if you have 4counters to spare (install 5/3, adv once, eff counters to trick of light, vitruv, trick of light again)
 
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Matt Wilson
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Don't forget Psychographics!
 
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Matt Wilson
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beepers wrote:
You can also save a few steps by using Shipment from Mirrormorph, so that you can Shipment your Shipment before scoring with Shipment. But don't leave your R&D vulnerable to an early Shipment. This of course can be countered with a well-timed Shipment.


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Nathaniel Kernes
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I am liking this idea really. It gives to a fair number of ways you can use it and the chances for an out of hand 4 points.

Toss in some Ambushes and you can end up with a half trap half fast advance deck.
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James Finkle
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The problem I see is with scoring the Efficiency Research in the first place. 4/2's are my least favorite agendas to score. You've either got to put one or more advancement counters on them and pass the turn, play two fast advance cards in one turn, or play it empty and combine it with a fast advance next turn. For the kind of difficulty it entails, I'd much rather try and score a 5/3, where at least I get 50% more reward out of it.
 
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Aleksi Laitinen
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wildfire393 wrote:
The problem I see is with scoring the Efficiency Research in the first place. 4/2's are my least favorite agendas to score. You've either got to put one or more advancement counters on them and pass the turn, play two fast advance cards in one turn, or play it empty and combine it with a fast advance next turn. For the kind of difficulty it entails, I'd much rather try and score a 5/3, where at least I get 50% more reward out of it.


However, you can more easily score a 4/2 agenda from blank state during one turn than a 5/3 agenda. You have a chance at passing it off as an economy asset or an upgrade until you score it.
 
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Brian H
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wildfire393 wrote:
The problem I see is with scoring the Efficiency Research in the first place. 4/2's are my least favorite agendas to score. You've either got to put one or more advancement counters on them and pass the turn, play two fast advance cards in one turn, or play it empty and combine it with a fast advance next turn. For the kind of difficulty it entails, I'd much rather try and score a 5/3, where at least I get 50% more reward out of it.


If you have a SanSan you can throw it down unadvanced and then score it next turn.
 
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Sebastian Barth
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MavericK96 wrote:
wildfire393 wrote:
The problem I see is with scoring the Efficiency Research in the first place. 4/2's are my least favorite agendas to score. You've either got to put one or more advancement counters on them and pass the turn, play two fast advance cards in one turn, or play it empty and combine it with a fast advance next turn. For the kind of difficulty it entails, I'd much rather try and score a 5/3, where at least I get 50% more reward out of it.


If you have a SanSan you can throw it down unadvanced and then score it next turn.

Or you can put it in your MirrorMorph package
 
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Sebastian Barth
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I am not so sure about about Kaguya working here anymore. And it's not the first part of Kaguya, because placing advancement counters is not the same as advancing a card, I agree here.

It rather is the second part

Kaguya wrote:
Place 1 advancement token on each of up to 2 different installed cards that can be advanced.


EC wrote:
Place 3 agenda counters on Efficiency Committee when you score it.
[Click], hosted agenda counter: Gain [Click] [Click]. You cannot advance cards for the remainder of this turn.

(emphasis mine)

If Kaguya was lacking the 2nd part, then it would work. Now I don't think so.
 
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Chris Wood
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sirprim wrote:
I am not so sure about about Kaguya working here anymore. And it's not the first part of Kaguya, because placing advancement counters is not the same as advancing a card, I agree here.

It rather is the second part

Kaguya wrote:
Place 1 advancement token on each of up to 2 different installed cards that can be advanced.


EC wrote:
Place 3 agenda counters on Efficiency Committee when you score it.
[Click], hosted agenda counter: Gain [Click] [Click]. You cannot advance cards for the remainder of this turn.

(emphasis mine)

If Kaguya was lacking the 2nd part, then it would work. Now I don't think so.


Emphasis mine

Quote:
You cannot advance cards for the remainder of this turn.


As in, taking the action. The cards did not lose the text saying they can be advanced. For your method to work it would be something like

"Cards that can be advanced and Agendas cannot be advanced for the remainder of the turn"
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Sebastian Barth
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Maybe I'm wrong. I just hope that for the balance of the game I'm right. Because we are reaching total non-interactive combo instant win here with Shipment from M + Shipment from K + Efficiency Committee.
 
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Chris Wood
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sirprim wrote:
Maybe I'm wrong. I just hope that for the balance of the game I'm right. Because we are reaching total non-interactive combo instant win here with Shipment from M + Shipment from K + Efficiency Committee.


A 4-5 card combo isn't what i'd call an instant win. If you can pull off the combo, best you can do is what, 3 advancements of 2 agendas? So maybe 4 points?

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Sebastian Barth
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Taloncarde wrote:
sirprim wrote:
Maybe I'm wrong. I just hope that for the balance of the game I'm right. Because we are reaching total non-interactive combo instant win here with Shipment from M + Shipment from K + Efficiency Committee.


A 4-5 card combo isn't what i'd call an instant win. If you can pull off the combo, best you can do is what, 3 advancements of 2 agendas? So maybe 4 points?


You could score a 3 and a 2 pointer all in one turn from hand, so instant game win after EC.
 
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Alex Rockwell
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I tried it. It was okay but it wasnt strong.
Not worth 3 influence, and there are other good things to use Efficiency counters on, like Mining twice in a turn, or installing and mining the same turn.

Mostly its hilarious.
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Ony Moose
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Hmm I'm undecided on the legality now, since you cannot advance any cards after using efficiency committee, so now none of your cards can be advanced, so you can't use trick/shipment on them.

With matrix analyser and the credit you can't use the credit for it because you aren't advancing, but you can only put the counter on a card which can be advanced. And after using efficiency committee, no cards can be advanced.
 
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Steven Tu
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Kandiru wrote:
Hmm I'm undecided on the legality now, since you cannot advance any cards after using efficiency committee, so now none of your cards can be advanced, so you can't use trick/shipment on them.

With matrix analyser and the credit you can't use the credit for it because you aren't advancing, but you can only put the counter on a card which can be advanced. And after using efficiency committee, no cards can be advanced.
the card says "you may not advance cards this turn", not "cards may not become advanced". I think it can be done.

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Ony Moose
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Ah, but if you cannot advance cards using the advance action, are those cards able to be advanced this turn?

You could still advance cards with some effect which didn't require the cards to be able to be advanced, but Trick of Light and Shipment both require the target to be able to be advanced. You can't use them on an unrezzed Woodcutter as it can't be advanced while unrezzed. You can't use them after using efficiency committee as none of the cards are able to be advanced this turn!



So my argument is after using efficiency committee all your agendas are no longer able to be advanced this turn. This means they are not valid targets for Shipment from Kaguya, even though it could put tokens on them if they were valid targets.

How to tell if a card can be advanced:
If you had a click and a credit, would you be able to advance it? If yes, it can be advanced.
 
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Michele Lupo
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Kandiru wrote:

So my argument is after using efficiency committee all your agendas are no longer able to be advanced this turn. This means they are not valid targets for Shipment from Kaguya, even though it could put tokens on them if they were valid targets.

How to tell if a card can be advanced:
If you had a click and a credit, would you be able to advance it? If yes, it can be advanced.



Your argument is invalid because the conclusion doesn't follow from the premise.


How to tell if a card can be advanced: Rulebook page 14

"Advancing a Card
For 1 Click and 1 Credit, the Corporation adds one advancement token
to an installed card. Agendas can always be advanced while
installed. Cards other than agendas can only be advanced if
their text box allows it. There is no limit to the number of times
a card can be advanced.
Note: If a card’s text box says that the card can be advanced, the
card can be advanced even when the card is unrezzed."

Thus it follows that the only thing the corp is prohibited from doing is spending 1 click and 1 credit to place an advancement token on any card.

It does not follow that the card is now unadvanceable in itself, just that the player is unable to use that particular action.

It does also not follow that advancement counters cannot be added using other means, because that does not fall under the term "Advancing" since we defined it as "spending 1 click and 1 credit to add an advancement counter to a card".
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