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Subject: Boring decks rss

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Piotr Jekel
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I often read comments that certain decks are boring, mainly that HB Fast Advance decks are boring. Strangely, NBN decks based on SanSan nor Scorthless Wayland decks are not labelled as such, although they play in a similar fashion. What in your opinion makes a deck boring? Is is the deck itself, the lack of traps, easy to predict path or the style it is played?

For me, the boring aspect of Netrunner is almost always related to the runner. No runs = no interaction = boring. When the runner ignores the corp and plays its own solitaire game, the game loses its shine.

The corp needs to install ice, tries to lure runner or sneak an agenda without proper protection, etc.

Some runners just sit back, build their rig or wait for the combo. That is why Criminals are the most fun to play for me. You run, take risks, sometimes calculated other times you attack head on.
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Zach Armstrong
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The thing to remember is that "boring" is a subjective term. I might personally not enjoy NBN Never Advance but get thrilled by HB Fast Advance; the point of the game is to have fun, whether you enjoy finding strange combos at the cost of win % or you enjoy finding the strongest iteration of popular decks that you can use to win consistently.

The other side of that coin is that some people see less value in playing HB Fast Advance because it's primary purpose is to score agendas with exposing them to the runner in a remote server, thus leaving the runner only to worry about HQ/R&D. It's a very effective strategy, but some see it as boring because it "simplifies" the gamestate.

I have to problem with HB Fast Advance, I just don't prefer to play it myself. Also, as the cardpool grows, the runners will have more answers to different dominant Corp deck types, and vice versa.
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Beyer
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I intentionally don't read strategy articles on how to put decks together so I don't know if there is some trick to what I'm about to say, a trick I completely missed that is.

My GF has played with a very versatile Kate deck for some time and all that time I've played anarchs/criminals in various forms.
So recently I decided to try a big-rig kind of Chaos Theory deck.
You know, something like, build economic engine on turn 1, build rig over the next two/three turns with plenty of tutors and breakers and then just click for money whenever the corp wasn't actively giving me something to think about so I'd always be stacked with bits whenever there was something juicy to run.

BOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOORING!

I recently made a for-fun criminal deck that has no Easy Marks. It needs money in the bank to make even more money. It runs forged activation, emergency shutdown, kraken, cortez chip and inside job. The whole shebang to make the corp worry about ice, where to put it, how much to lay down and how to pay for it.

That deck usually played REAL slow because the corp would always be down on money or ice while I screwed stuff over, but it was always fun because it took a lot of creative plays to break in a lot of the time. I couldn't afford a lot of breakers because I had to spend my money on other stuff and so I always had to come up with some weird shimmy to take focus away from what I was really trying to break into.

I've run a trapless NBN deck that creates a ton of remotes, has almost only sentries and sprinkles tags/psychographics and closed accounts like there was no tomorrow. The deck has so many upgrades I usually just swamp a single server with them, creating an illusion of plenty of red herrings or other stuff that would kill the runner's economy that people wont run. The deck runs encryption protocol, marked accounts, herrings, bernice mai all sorts of stuff that costs me 0 to rez and a ton of creds to trash. It's always a dance to figure out how to break a runner with this kind of approach and it makes for some very interesting games (even if Noise does roll this deck quite bad).

So the main thing that determines whether a deck is boring is how I have to play the deck to make it work. If there is always only one best strategy in my turn, honestly I would've played Magic. I intentionally build decks that will let me experiment while I play, even if they are suboptimal compared to a deck that will always do that one thing right.

Traps are fun, when they work, but they rarely do.
It's the surprises that are fun, not necessarily the traps.
Trick of Light, Closed Accounts, Midseason Replacements, Inside Job, Stimhack (if you know your opponent is running traps) are all fun cards when they appear out of nowhere.
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Alex Rockwell
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hobb3 wrote:
I often read comments that certain decks are boring, mainly that HB Fast Advance decks are boring. Strangely, NBN decks based on SanSan nor Scorthless Wayland decks are not labelled as such, although they play in a similar fashion. What in your opinion makes a deck boring? Is is the deck itself, the lack of traps, easy to predict path or the style it is played?

For me, the boring aspect of Netrunner is almost always related to the runner. No runs = no interaction = boring. When the runner ignores the corp and plays its own solitaire game, the game loses its shine.

The corp needs to install ice, tries to lure runner or sneak an agenda without proper protection, etc.

Some runners just sit back, build their rig or wait for the combo. That is why Criminals are the most fun to play for me. You run, take risks, sometimes calculated other times you attack head on.



To me, playing corp is almost always exciting, because I have to defend against central server runs, defend a remote to try and do anything, etc. Its tough.

I have fun anytime I can afford to do things. The decks that arent fun to me are the ones that play a Junebug and become poor advancing it, and go broke paying for non-lethal Snares. I just hate that!
 
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Patrick Jamet
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Junebugs and Snares! don't need to kill you. They exist to trash your Account Siphons.
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Lysander
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Decks that win too easily or follow an extremely simple, linear strategy are boring for me.
 
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Edward K.
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Pretty much the current meta, well pre CnC, is boring to me. It fell into a rut of FA decks and hard hitting RnD or some siphon deck build to win. This won't change really in my opinion, FA is too strong for some people to abandon.
 
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Matthew H
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I originally started with criminal and HB - no surprise there. Both sides of the game involved lots of combos, creds, and wins. What's not to love?

However, as I continue to play, I'm finding more and more enjoyment from building decks centered on efficiency rather than risk and tricks. The ability for Shaper and Weyland to become this machine that grows and develops throughout the game has been really fun to play with.

No, it doesn't provide the same adrenaline rush as running without a rig or being able to junebug for 20 net damage, but when everything falls into place to steal/advance that last agenda - just how I planned it - that's fun for me.
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Maybe Next Time
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You beat me with Criminal? OMG, sad you - Criminal is sooo boring!

You beat me with HB? OMG, sad you - HB is sooo boring!

You beat me with X? OMG, sad you - X is sooo boring!
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Mara
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I think that the truly boring decks are those where there is minimal interaction between the two sides. I enjoy facing off against Criminals or HB/NBN/Weyland because they create situations where you have to make hard decisions and all of them create lots of interesting pressure.

On the other hand, I actually feel facing against many Jinteki and pre-C&C Shapers is boring. Jinteki frequently just sits there while you pad up your hand before running. I hate when Shapers would just sit there gaining money and building their rig while I score 7 points with no resistance.
 
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Pavlos Pavlopoulos
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For me the fun part of the game when playing corp and going for an agenda victory is exposing agendas in your remotes, because that's where the most meaningful interaction with the runner happens. Runs on centrals devolve into computing percentages and hoping the dice come the right side up (unless you lock R&D of course). If I'm playing a corp deck that only stacks ICE on centrals and takes creds until the right combination of cards hits the hand, I get extremely bored. I'm basically just installing ICE and hoping each time the runner accesses a central that he won't hit that agenda I've been holding/waiting for.

Playing criminal is fun cause it's interactive (the major qq about criminal is Account Siphon, not the rest of the cards or the play style itself). Rush decks are fun because they're interactive.

That's me of course. Non-interactive decks are extremely effective, and you can't blame anyone for playing to win. I've seen people claim that playing HB FA/Noise gets you ridiculed cause the strategies are not cool. That's just hilarious.
 
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Lysander
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Tomatello wrote:
You beat me with Criminal? OMG, sad you - Criminal is sooo boring!

You beat me with HB? OMG, sad you - HB is sooo boring!

You beat me with X? OMG, sad you - X is sooo boring!


How incredibly insightful.
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Ryan Angell
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be the bioroid. to the bioroid there is no boring. there is just +1 and -1.

if you care about winning remove boring, non-interactive and uncreative from your vocabulary. there is just an edge and whether or not you choose to push it.

what is interesting is how often a player i perceive as good will complain about non-interactivity. imo this has little to do with being bored but that the good player has an edge when playing an interactive game they do not get to utilize if the other player is playing a less interactive game.

its the equivalent if i sat down at a poker table with Phil Ivey. i don't really want to interact with Phil because if i do he would probably take me apart. i might instead push all in with any hand i thought was decent and hope to get lucky taking away his massive skill edge after the flop.

to take this to netrunner if i thought the field i would face would be able to outplay me in the remote servers i might choose noise because this might take away the skill edge i think the other players hold over me. of course this could backfire when the entire field goes in a different direction but that just means the edge i attempted to push didnt work out. those are the breaks.

if i complain i usually try to never include boring or uncreative in my complaint. i might use fuzzy math and cite wikipedia but i try to stick to game states + 1 and -1 and avoid player states.





 
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John Choong
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Maybe people label a type of deck as boring when they see most of it being play in a meta-environment which makes it predictable. For people playing HB in a competitive environment, they would often play San-San for Fast Advance or Trick of Light for Rush Advance. Note: The term Fast Advance and Rush Advance is used in reference to Jopejope article on HB arche-type here, http://boardgamegeek.com/thread/982985/three-styles-of-haas-...). IMHO, it would be non-boring if we can see somebody who does not play any San-San city or Trick of Light. Somehow, the predictable of such decks and its strategy make the game experience stale to some players. (However, we need to take note, that a predictable deck does not mean it is any less challenging if a player can play it skillfully like knowing where to install an Ice, when to Rez an Ice and how to maintain its economy).

Some players may find HB boring because once they have "suffiently" installed their Ice, when it comes to the mid-game or later, it is matter of waiting for the Agenda to come into the hand. The HB corp often have the potential to score the agenda on its turn using either San-San or Trick of Light. It make it easy for HB to achieve this because of its 3 point agenda and at times the help with Biotic Labour.

However, in a competitive environment, people often go for the more consistent build and this is where using those cards that are commonly reliable for the win is often an unavoidable practice.

I believe for a non-boring deck to see in HB is to have somebody play HB: Stronger Together identity and deviate from the commonly used HB: Engineering the Future. With the introduction of the new HB identity, there will be greater opportunities to construct new decks. But I can foresee that with the HB: Customer Biotics-Engineered for success, most players will go for HB tag and bag, throwing in 2 or 3 Scorched Earth and putting in Sea-Source and/or ice that focus on tagging. If this does happen, then the HB Tag-and-Bag archetype will gradually become "boring".

It would be so much interesting to see somebody use HB: Cerebral Imaging-Infinite Frontier. I am still trying to wrap my head on how to play this identity as your credit will always fluctuate (especially when you suddenly spend a large amount of credit to pay for Biotic Labour or to rez San-San to score an Agenda).

It would also be interesting to have players to construct an HB Flytrap and Ambush deck using a number of ambush assets. Or perhaps build an HB "Shell-Game" deck by putting a series of assets out and invite Runner to run (guessing which one is an Ambush asset like how Jinteki would play it).

I really like to see HB decks use Archer. Many players (in my meta-group) will not expect Archer to be present in an HB deck but later on with some 3-1 Agenda, I could see this being played.

Weyland "Non-Boring" Decks
Almost 95% of the time, when I see a player play Weyland, they would often play a tag-and-bag deck with Scorched Earth in it combined with Sea-Source, Data Raven or perhaps both. It is so boring to see such build often and again. However, you cannot deny that Weyland often create a tension, whether enjoyable or not, you try to get your Plascrete Carapace out early and if you are Criminal, you can opt for Decoy or Crash Space and be constantly watch out for danger of being tagged.

However, I like this Weyland deck which was played by the June 2013 La Fayette regional champ. I was surprised that this deck did not utilise any Scorched Earth.
3x Gov’t Contracts
3x Priority Req
3x Hostile Takeover

3x Archer
3x Hadrian’s Wall
3x Ice Wall
3x Shadow
3x Caduceus
3x Enigma
3x Wall of Static

3x Oversight AI
3x Beanstalk Royalties
3x Hedge Fund
3x Green Level Clearance *
2x Archived Memories **

3x Ash **
2x Corporate Troubleshooter

(Source: http://stimhack.com/tournament-decklists/)

When contemplating about this deck, my group mates argued against the wisdom of not putting Scorched Earth in it. How can Weyland operate without Scorched Earth? I think in the tournament, the LaFayette champ would have probably use the wisdom of going against the common assumption, play without Scorched Earth and focus on advancing the Agenda)

Jinteki "Varied" Archetypes
I think the Corp that has the most potential of being non-boring will be Jinteki. I've looked through so many build, there are many different cards and strategies that can played using Jinteki. You could go for "shell-game" Jinteki, Tower of Power Jinteki, Programme Trashing Jinteki and Net and Meat Damage Jinteki, and later on with Cerebral Overwriting Jinteki, there could be a trio damage Jinteki. In addition, Jinteki can varied the card so much, that I don't often see a Jinteki's card that are so highly dominant (other than Snares! and Neural Katana). I often see a high variation of Ice and Asset that are being put into the Jinteki deck. I somehow find the incorporate of Scorched Earth into a Jinteki deck to be interesting, exciting and therefore "non-boring". Often players don't expect Jinteki to play Scorched Earth (maybe due to the perception of its high influence which can be used to get some other useful Ice, Operation and Ambush asset).

Here are two website links which I find a non-boring deck - http://stimhack.com/schaumburg-illinois-tournament-report/ and http://www.cardgamedb.com/index.php/index.html/_/articles/a-...

I like the former because it does not have Trick of Light and it makes the use of the Asset such as Ronin so much challenging. Also notice the one Scorched Earth it in. I like the latter to due its deviation from inflicting net damage (which is an uncommon strategy) and focuses on trashing the Runner's programme.

NBN Creative Decks
I can't really comment much about HB because I don't play with it often but I frequently see players to either go for the Tag-and-Bag archetype or the Fast Advance archetype. However, I do like the strategy and the build of NBN Never Advance deck. I have also saw this creative deck which is so extreme in just having 3 Pop-Up window as Ice (see http://www.cardgamedb.com/index.php/index.html/_/android-net...). I couldn't picture how this can be played but it is no doubt, in my view, NON-BORING.

I like how my friend incorporate Edge of the World, using a Never Advance approach, and trick me into running the remote server using cheap ice and BOOM! 3 BRAIN DAMAGE!!! yuk Never expected NBN to have a Edge of the World and that is what I called non-boring as you encounter something new.


Anyway, this is just my take on the debate of boring and non-boring. However, I am no means a highly experience player so there may be certain deck that I have missed out. Hope to write about Runner later (if I have the time). Cheers.
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Steven Tu
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Some people find throwing dice over and over to get 6s exciting. Some don't.

Some say that playing against an HB deck without a remote in which to score stuff - so that all you can ever do as runner is to spend stupid amounts of resources to get into R&D and see 1 card (throw dice) over and over - to be boring.

Some say that playing against a Noise deck that throws a lot more dice against which you can't do anything about boring.

Some have built specifically those strategies (Shapers can throw 2+ dice per R&D run, or Big Dig can throw tons of dice at a time), but some want to play other strategies that don't directly counter the decks that mandate you to throw dice.
 
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Re Weyland:

Part of the problem is that a) there have not been until very recently any other viable combo corps, and b) Weyland received very little in the way of non-combo additions in Genesis.

The first point is less true now, with NBN being able to execute a Midseasons Replacement/Beale win without having to spend every shred of influence on Scorched Earth. Our last tournament also had a couple of double Ronin flatlines too, so Jinteki flatline appears to be viable too. This means combo players now have more choice, which will hopefully reduce the number of people playing Weyland by default.

However, nothing about that second point is less true. Weyland's one real gain, Project Atlas, is ultimately a combo tool. The operation they got was situational, and the new ID is based on the worst ICE in the game, as is their sysop. And the new ICE? Yeah...

Given that Weyland is the only corporation with no native fast advance, the corp offers very, very little to anyone not wanting to win via flatline.
 
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Gin Teki
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hobb3 wrote:
I often read comments that certain decks are boring, mainly that HB Fast Advance decks are boring.


hobb3 wrote:
What in your opinion makes a deck boring?


I compare ANR to world football teams to get an answer. Look at Spain (Barcelona), the best footballing team in the world. Technically beautiful, they control the ball well, they keep possession. The other team does not get a look in. Because of this, Spain are also labelled one of the most boring teams to watch. There is little or no tension. There is little or no drama. There is little or no risk. I would say that this holds true for some decks. To add to HBFA, speaking personally, there is little or no surprise also.
 
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Erik Twice
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Every deck is boring if you play with eurogamers.

/yesiwentthere
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