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Subject: Efficiency Committee + Shipment/Psychographics/Trick of Light Ruling From Lukas rss

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Matt Wilson
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Hey y'all!

I heard back from Lukas about Efficiency Committee and cards like Shipment.

There was rough consensus that cards that placed advancement tokens would still work, and that consensus was correct!

Quote:

Thanks for the question. The correct interpretation is a) you can use Shipment from Kaguya and Trick of Light to place advancement tokens on cards.
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Ony Moose
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Interesting, that makes for quite combo-tastic deck with HB:The-one-with-the-massive-hand-size.


Between Trick of Light, Shipment from Kaguya, Archived memories and Project Vitrivirus you should be able to win from 2 points pretty easily.
 
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Matt Wilson
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Kandiru wrote:
Interesting, that makes for quite combo-tastic deck with HB:The-one-with-the-massive-hand-size.


Between Trick of Light, Shipment from Kaguya, Archived memories and Project Vitrivirus you should be able to win from 2 points pretty easily.


Well, first you have to get the massive hand and not spend money defending other servers, so I'm not too worried about that ID unless Account Siphon and Vamp get banned .
 
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Dirk Tebben
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Kandiru wrote:
Interesting, that makes for quite combo-tastic deck with HB:The-one-with-the-massive-hand-size.


Between Trick of Light, Shipment from Kaguya, Archived memories and Project Vitrivirus you should be able to win from 2 points pretty easily.


Cerebral Imaging gets destroyed by Account Siphon. Talk about amplifying your weaknesses...

I'm pretty confident that the existence of Siphon makes CI unplayable forever.
 
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Steven Tu
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stillnotking wrote:
Kandiru wrote:
Interesting, that makes for quite combo-tastic deck with HB:The-one-with-the-massive-hand-size.


Between Trick of Light, Shipment from Kaguya, Archived memories and Project Vitrivirus you should be able to win from 2 points pretty easily.


Cerebral Imaging gets destroyed by Account Siphon. Talk about amplifying your weaknesses...

I'm pretty confident that the existence of Siphon makes CI unplayable forever.


I dunno if you've ever seen an iceless NBN deck run. You have no idea how rich it is. 5 creds doesn't really disable traps, it only gives the crim money.

If anything dismantles that deck it'll b r&d attack with medium and r&d interface.
 
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Dirk Tebben
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Like the iceless deck that won the Erehwon regional?

Hey, if you can make an iceless CI deck work, awesome. No sarcasm, I'd love to see it!
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Steven Tu
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beepers wrote:
Are you guys serious about Account Siphon destroying Cerebral Imaging? Really?

You do realize, when there's no pressure to start scoring agendas, you free up a fantastic amount of resources, right?

All of those resources; creds, ICE, upgrades, go to the Centrals. This is a stall identity, ultimately. You're going to stack Two Towers of ICE 4 stories high and then use the pool of cash that you've accumulated to keep up with hand growth to start Biotic Laboring agendas out of hand.

Later in the game, when the Runner has their breakers out to get past your layer one early game end the run ICE (ICE that you didn't need to use on a remote), Account Siphon becomes less and less economically beneficial for the Runner.

What this agenda really has is a Sneak Door Beta weakness.


Do you really think you have a chance at keeping your credit above 5 if you're gonna rez ICE on HQ, R&D and remotes? Even with HB money stuff it's kinda tough.

Well, in theory anyway. I gave the iceless thing a go, predictably got torn apart by RD Interface XD I bet Mediums and co would take it apart too.

So I guess I just need to get ICE XD
 
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Alex Rockwell
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beepers wrote:
Are you guys serious about Account Siphon destroying Cerebral Imaging? Really?

You do realize, when there's no pressure to start scoring agendas, you free up a fantastic amount of resources, right?

All of those resources; creds, ICE, upgrades, go to the Centrals. This is a stall identity, ultimately. You're going to stack Two Towers of ICE 4 stories high and then use the pool of cash that you've accumulated to keep up with hand growth to start Biotic Laboring agendas out of hand.

Later in the game, when the Runner has their breakers out to get past your layer one early game end the run ICE (ICE that you didn't need to use on a remote), Account Siphon becomes less and less economically beneficial for the Runner.

What this agenda really has is a Sneak Door Beta weakness.



Are you even playing the same game, that we are playing?

If the strategy of "do nothing for an eternity while icing up HQ and R&D a ton" was a good strategy, thats what decks would be doing. However, runner dominate that strategy pretty hard, with their excellent lategames. Especially if your source of income is apparently mostly clicking for it, and not having the EtF power.

The reason people rush, and build remotes, and use SanSan, and traps, and bluffs, is that the only chance that the corp has is if they either manage to waste the runners time on bluffs, OR if the runner decides that the actual agendas are bluffs, doesnt go hard at them, and they sneak through. Getting the runner to waste time on remotes reduces pressure on centrals greatly, which is needed, or else youll just get blown out by mediums or R&D interfaces or whatever.


You dont free up many resources by not making a good remote. In fact, without a remote, you cant utilize good economy resources like Melange and Adonis, that require defense.


Cerebral Imaging has MANY problems, not just one.

1a) It doesnt give $1 a turn, or any other significant advantage.
1b) Holding many cards in your hand is not that much better than holding 5.

2) Money drain effects that bring you to 0 are followed by a turn of "Take $3, discard down to 3 cards". Normally, discarding from 5 to 3 would be bad. But in this case, our hand was actually likely to be larger than 5. If you had drawn a bunch, up to 10 cards, and have 3 agendas in there, and then you have to discard down to 3, you are WRECKED.

2b) Decks that drain your money often play things that you need to kill like Data Leak Reversal and Joshua B, to waste your time andforce you to stay poor longer. If you get vamped to 0 and the opponent has Data leak Reversal, what do you do? If you get $3 and discard down to 3 cards, you are getting milled for 4 cards next turn! If you get $2 and kill it, you are discarding to ZERO.

3) The problem goes beyond just money drain effects. The larger problem is that you are tying up some of your credits to maintain your hand size. You cant end a turn at $0, because you lose your entire hand to do so. Frequently in netrunner, when you actually do try to make a play, getting an agenda through, especially a big one, if the runenr runs and you rez that ice, and combine that with the cost to advance the agenda, you get very poor.

Imagine that you successfully defend your 5/3 agenda that you installed and 2xadvanced. You have $3 left. You could triple advance next turn and score it. Normal decks DO THIS. This happens.

But Cerebral Imaging discards its entire hand if it does this!

Essentially, you are being forced to set aside your starting $5 that you begin the game with, in order to even maintain a default hand size. You cant end a turn without this bank of money or get get wrecked. To maintain a big hand, you need to set aside MORE money.

So essentially, Cerebral Imaging says:
Start with no credits. If you lose even more credits, you can hold extra cards in your hand. If you ever get your money stolen, you are utterly destroyed.


Compare this identity which is an economic DISADVANTAGE to the economic ADVANTAGE of EtF.


The upside is minor. Holding extra cards in hand as corp is a minor benefit. The cost of this ability is losing a massive amount of economy AND exposing yourself to extra risk from Siphon/Vamp.

If you do a cost/benefit analysis on this trade, it is very clear how bad this card is.
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Steven Tu
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Basically, we need a card that says "get 1 cred for every card in hand". And then we'll talk

But I tried it, and it's really really really hard to make money when the runner is banging down your R&D forever. With NBN you have the tagging game, with HB you have to import Snares... And that costs money too.
 
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General Norris
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The problem I see with Cerebral Imagining right now is that Research Station already covers all your card holding needs at a much lower cost.
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Alex Rockwell
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Tuism wrote:
Basically, we need a card that says "get 1 cred for every card in hand". And then we'll talk

But I tried it, and it's really really really hard to make money when the runner is banging down your R&D forever. With NBN you have the tagging game, with HB you have to import Snares... And that costs money too.


Yes. And an ice whose strength is equal to your hand size.

For now, this is currently the worst card in the game.
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Ony Moose
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Well if you have a ton of operations to boost cash, like beanstalk, green level clearance, hedge fund, commercialisation and then use Simone to advance a massive ice wall on R&D you can recover from being vamped to 0 quite well with a turn of operation playing.

I'm not really sure it fits HB though, would probably work better in Weyland.

The only other thing the ID is good for is discarding lots. Normally the corp can only discard if they have >5cards in R&D. However at the moment the only cards which the corp has to recurse from archives are Howler (which also works from HQ) and Director's Pet Project (which also works from HQ). We need something like retrieval run for ICE before this ID will really benefit. The combo potential of the ID is great though, which shouldn't be overlooked, just I don't think the cards are there to support it yet (like the professor).
 
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Steven Tu
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I wonder if all these lackluster cards that we have right now is a great shining example of the amazing future this game has... Or some kind of testing hell that FFG has

I mean, Cerebral Imaging, Monolith, Salvage, heck, even NBN2 to a certain extent... Oh and Deep Thought.

Here's hoping for some epic changes in future
 
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James W
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Kandiru wrote:

The only other thing the ID is good for is discarding lots.


That gave me an idea!

At the moment, a major hurdle for this ID is to somehow afford to pay for Central server defence, Remote server defence and advancing/scoring.

What if we're thinking about this from the wrong direction?

What is H-B intrinsically good at?
- Slowing the Runner down via Bioroids/strong ice
- Recursion out of Archives
- Gaining extra clicks

What if we, by design, only lightly defend HQ and shift those extra resources to Archive defence? Then you play a normal HB high-econ, fast-advancing Agendas if you get them. If the Agenda density in HQ starts getting dicey, purposely spend credits to drop your max hand size and then dump your extra Agenda into Archives.

I don't think it would hold up in competitive play, but it could be a fun way to approach this ID.
 
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Steven Tu
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kingjames01 wrote:
Kandiru wrote:

The only other thing the ID is good for is discarding lots.


That gave me an idea!

At the moment, a major hurdle for this ID is to somehow afford to pay for Central server defence, Remote server defence and advancing/scoring.

What if we're thinking about this from the wrong direction?

What is H-B intrinsically good at?
- Slowing the Runner down via Bioroids/strong ice
- Recursion out of Archives
- Gaining extra clicks

What if we, by design, only lightly defend HQ and shift those extra resources to Archive defence? Then you play a normal HB high-econ, fast-advancing Agendas if you get them. If the Agenda density in HQ starts getting dicey, purposely spend credits to drop your max hand size and then dump your extra Agenda into Archives.

I don't think it would hold up in competitive play, but it could be a fun way to approach this ID.


LOL. That's an interesting idea, but Arhives is usually a one-way-street - getting stuff out of there *is* hard, even with Howler, Archived Memories, stacked Vitruvius (how long can you secure a remote for? And... by the same token, If a runner WANTS to get into Archives, eventually they will. It's just a matter of time.

Securing remotes for 2 turns at a time is hard enough, you want to secure archives for the entire game?? Oh and if you don't, HQ needs to be secure, despite "lightly defending" it.

I do think that'd be an amazing theme if they can ever make it work - like Shaper and Exile now - but damn if it worked I'd be... I'd be... I dunno, I'd be Johnnytastic
 
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James W
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Tuism wrote:
kingjames01 wrote:
Kandiru wrote:

The only other thing the ID is good for is discarding lots.


That gave me an idea!

At the moment, a major hurdle for this ID is to somehow afford to pay for Central server defence, Remote server defence and advancing/scoring.

What if we're thinking about this from the wrong direction?

What is H-B intrinsically good at?
- Slowing the Runner down via Bioroids/strong ice
- Recursion out of Archives
- Gaining extra clicks

What if we, by design, only lightly defend HQ and shift those extra resources to Archive defence? Then you play a normal HB high-econ, fast-advancing Agendas if you get them. If the Agenda density in HQ starts getting dicey, purposely spend credits to drop your max hand size and then dump your extra Agenda into Archives.

I don't think it would hold up in competitive play, but it could be a fun way to approach this ID.


LOL. That's an interesting idea, but Arhives is usually a one-way-street - getting stuff out of there *is* hard, even with Howler, Archived Memories, stacked Vitruvius (how long can you secure a remote for? And... by the same token, If a runner WANTS to get into Archives, eventually they will. It's just a matter of time.

Securing remotes for 2 turns at a time is hard enough, you want to secure archives for the entire game?? Oh and if you don't, HQ needs to be secure, despite "lightly defending" it.

I do think that'd be an amazing theme if they can ever make it work - like Shaper and Exile now - but damn if it worked I'd be... I'd be... I dunno, I'd be Johnnytastic


hehe, it's a weird idea... I know. Also, very, VERY fragile since you'd have to be able to control your credit pool.

I'm not sure if the point is to keep the Runner out forever. It would be enough to force them to run the Archives a few times over the game just to see what kinds of cards you've been throwing in there face-down.

I'm not sure if it could work... it's a completely different way to play as Corp and I've found holes in the overall strategy. However, for each hole I've been able to uncover, I've also found a simple solution that probably works to compensate.

As I said, it's a completely different way to play as Corp for a strange ID.
 
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Ony Moose
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I'd like an ID with

"you may use face down cards on archives as if they were in HQ"

Probably with -1maximum hand size.

But there is an operation coming up in spin cycle which returns ALL ice from archives to HQ I think, which would go rather well with Cerebral Imaging...
 
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Steven Tu
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kingjames01 wrote:
Tuism wrote:
kingjames01 wrote:
Kandiru wrote:

The only other thing the ID is good for is discarding lots.


That gave me an idea!

At the moment, a major hurdle for this ID is to somehow afford to pay for Central server defence, Remote server defence and advancing/scoring.

What if we're thinking about this from the wrong direction?

What is H-B intrinsically good at?
- Slowing the Runner down via Bioroids/strong ice
- Recursion out of Archives
- Gaining extra clicks

What if we, by design, only lightly defend HQ and shift those extra resources to Archive defence? Then you play a normal HB high-econ, fast-advancing Agendas if you get them. If the Agenda density in HQ starts getting dicey, purposely spend credits to drop your max hand size and then dump your extra Agenda into Archives.

I don't think it would hold up in competitive play, but it could be a fun way to approach this ID.


LOL. That's an interesting idea, but Arhives is usually a one-way-street - getting stuff out of there *is* hard, even with Howler, Archived Memories, stacked Vitruvius (how long can you secure a remote for? And... by the same token, If a runner WANTS to get into Archives, eventually they will. It's just a matter of time.

Securing remotes for 2 turns at a time is hard enough, you want to secure archives for the entire game?? Oh and if you don't, HQ needs to be secure, despite "lightly defending" it.

I do think that'd be an amazing theme if they can ever make it work - like Shaper and Exile now - but damn if it worked I'd be... I'd be... I dunno, I'd be Johnnytastic


hehe, it's a weird idea... I know. Also, very, VERY fragile since you'd have to be able to control your credit pool.

I'm not sure if the point is to keep the Runner out forever. It would be enough to force them to run the Archives a few times over the game just to see what kinds of cards you've been throwing in there face-down.

I'm not sure if it could work... it's a completely different way to play as Corp and I've found holes in the overall strategy. However, for each hole I've been able to uncover, I've also found a simple solution that probably works to compensate.

As I said, it's a completely different way to play as Corp for a strange ID.


Well I really like the idea, but I don't think it fits the game - by nature, a portion of the corp's draw need to be defended, wherever it is.

This ID's only real "advantage" is to possibly amass a huge hand. That is if you have a huge bank. Percentage wise, if you don't score/move agendas out of your hand, you have to lock it down, as a 1/5 chance isn't much different from a 2/10 chance.

So if we forgo that and dump cards into the archive... You're now both poor and have 2 servers you *neeed* to defend - or wherever you keep the agendas you have to make sure no entry. Which as we all know is impossible.

Over time, the agendas will leave R&D and will HAVE TO pool somewhere. Even with 3x reworks, if you don't score some you'll just be very, very sad.

So... Either you FA (SO MUCH MONEY) out of hand or build a remote. In which case you now have ALL of them you need to defend, again. Oh and R&D. Oops back to square 1.

Like I said I would REALLY LOVE that style of play, but I don't know if it's possible with the corp's mechanics.
 
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Steven Tu
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Kandiru wrote:
I'd like an ID with

"you may use face down cards on archives as if they were in HQ"

Probably with -1maximum hand size.

But there is an operation coming up in spin cycle which returns ALL ice from archives to HQ I think, which would go rather well with Cerebral Imaging...


Kandiru wrote:
I'd like an ID with

"you may use face down cards on archives as if they were in HQ"

Probably with -1maximum hand size.

But there is an operation coming up in spin cycle which returns ALL ice from archives to HQ I think, which would go rather well with Cerebral Imaging...


"there is an operation coming up in spin cycle which returns ALL ice from archives to HQ"


WHERE DID THAT INTEL COME FROM!?
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Ony Moose
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http://www.netrunneronline.com/cards/reclamation-project/
and
"Players of the classic 1990s game may remember this mechanic, and almost all of the original doubles are back, in one form or another." from http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/edge_news.asp?eidn=4134

We have Running Interference back(at +2cost), and Networking is reborn as Queen's Gambit(added cost of 3 counters, but no starting cost). I don't see why reclamation project won't be returned to use as well! (Although perhaps nerfed slightly.)
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Steven Tu
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Kandiru wrote:
http://www.netrunneronline.com/cards/reclamation-project/
and
"Players of the classic 1990s game may remember this mechanic, and almost all of the original doubles are back, in one form or another." from http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/edge_news.asp?eidn=4134

We have Running Interference back(at +2cost), and Networking is reborn as Queen's Gambit(added cost of 3 counters, but no starting cost). I don't see why reclamation project won't be returned to use as well! (Although perhaps nerfed slightly.)


*squeeeeee*

My poor icekiller deck is going to suffer though
 
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Shane Baumgartner
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I see that Kaguya and ToL have been addressed, but was there ever a ruling on if you can play Psychographics after gaining clicks from Efficiency Committee?
 
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Gregory Pettigrew
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Shatner83 wrote:
I see that Kaguya and ToL have been addressed, but was there ever a ruling on if you can play Psychographics after gaining clicks from Efficiency Committee?


Psychographics uses the same text. Ruling not needed.
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Kevin Jones
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Shatner83 wrote:
I see that Kaguya and ToL have been addressed, but was there ever a ruling on if you can play Psychographics after gaining clicks from Efficiency Committee?
What can be interpreted from this response is that, while you cannot directly advance agendas after using Efficiency Committee, any other card that places advancement tokens on cards is perfectly acceptable.
 
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I feel lost seeing a ruling but no question.

I assume this has something to do with "advancing a card" (costs a click,2c) and "placing advancement tokens" being two different things.
 
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