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Subject: [ANSWERED] Do Bye Rounds Give A Player Corp And Runner Wins? rss

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Bryan Blumklotz
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QUESTION:
Bye scoring. The participant that gets the bye during a Swiss round gets 4 prestige points. They get no strength of schedule.

Do they get a win as Corp and Player with the 4 prestige? This will have an impact upon their ranking if a bye round does not count as a Corp and Runner win.

ANSWER:
Thanks for the question. The player with the bye will not receive credit for a Corp or Runner win. We will update the tournament rules to reflect this.

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Lukas Litzsinger
Game Designer
Fantasy Flight Games

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James W
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Saracenus wrote:
QUESTION:
Bye scoring. The participant that gets the bye during a Swiss round gets 4 prestige points. They get no strength of schedule.

Do they get a win as Corp and Player with the 4 prestige? This will have an impact upon their ranking if a bye round does not count as a Corp and Runner win.

ANSWER:
Thanks for the question. The player with the bye will not receive credit for a Corp or Runner win. We will update the tournament rules to reflect this.

--
Lukas Litzsinger
Game Designer
Fantasy Flight Games



That seems to punish the Regional champions if they opt to receive a bye at the Worlds.

Since the match-ups are random in the first round, it might be better, for those of us planning to show up, to decline the bye.
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Bryan Blumklotz
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kingjames01 wrote:
That seems to punish the Regional champions if they opt to receive a bye at the Worlds.

Since the match-ups are random in the first round, it might be better, for those of us planning to show up, to decline the bye.


The old rules punished the bye for Swiss Qualifiers (a Bye round granted 6 prestige but no Match or Strength of Schedule Points).

The rankings were sorted for these rounds by:
Prestige --> Strength of Schedule --> Match Points

So there were problems if you were in a tie-breaker near the cut.

The main difference with the new tourney scoring rule is that there are fewer Prestige Points and the need for both low side wins and strength of schedule tie-breakers is going to be more pronounced.

Regional champions are going to have to weigh a guaranteed 4 Prestige vs. being behind on wins and strength of schedule.
 
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Saracenus wrote:
QUESTION:
Bye scoring. The participant that gets the bye during a Swiss round gets 4 prestige points. They get no strength of schedule.

Do they get a win as Corp and Player with the 4 prestige? This will have an impact upon their ranking if a bye round does not count as a Corp and Runner win.

ANSWER:
Thanks for the question. The player with the bye will not receive credit for a Corp or Runner win. We will update the tournament rules to reflect this.

--
Lukas Litzsinger
Game Designer
Fantasy Flight Games



I'll add language to the Tourney Worksheet to reflect this.

-tpl
 
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James W
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Saracenus wrote:
kingjames01 wrote:
That seems to punish the Regional champions if they opt to receive a bye at the Worlds.

Since the match-ups are random in the first round, it might be better, for those of us planning to show up, to decline the bye.


The old rules punished the bye for Swiss Qualifiers (a Bye round granted 6 prestige but no Match or Strength of Schedule Points).

The rankings were sorted for these rounds by:
Prestige --> Strength of Schedule --> Match Points

So there were problems if you were in a tie-breaker near the cut.

The main difference with the new tourney scoring rule is that there are fewer Prestige Points and the need for both low side wins and strength of schedule tie-breakers is going to be more pronounced.

Regional champions are going to have to weigh a guaranteed 4 Prestige vs. being behind on wins and strength of schedule.


That's going to be a tough decision I think.

In the old system, 6 prestige points represented a large gap in the standings and was fairly tough to close.

With fewer available prestige point distributions per match, I could naively believe that there will be more tied scores right near the cut-off.

Those extra Strength of Schedule points would be more valuable in that situation.

I don't know. Since you submitted the question, have you considered the consequences and, if so, what conclusions have you come to?
 
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Tobin Lopes
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Saracenus wrote:
kingjames01 wrote:
That seems to punish the Regional champions if they opt to receive a bye at the Worlds.

Since the match-ups are random in the first round, it might be better, for those of us planning to show up, to decline the bye.


The old rules punished the bye for Swiss Qualifiers (a Bye round granted 6 prestige but no Match or Strength of Schedule Points).

The rankings were sorted for these rounds by:
Prestige --> Strength of Schedule --> Match Points

So there were problems if you were in a tie-breaker near the cut.

The main difference with the new tourney scoring rule is that there are fewer Prestige Points and the need for both low side wins and strength of schedule tie-breakers is going to be more pronounced.

Regional champions are going to have to weigh a guaranteed 4 Prestige vs. being behind on wins and strength of schedule.


For first round Byes the possible options and the results are pretty straight forward. You have:

BYE: 4 PP, 0 WSW (Weak Side Win Pts), 0 SoS (Total PP of opponents played)
Live game-win both: 4 PP, 1 WSW, 0 SoS*
Live game-win one: 2 PP, 0 WSW, 2 SoS*
Live game-lost both: 0 PP, 0 WSW, 4 SoS*

* = Your opponent will continue to collect PP as the tourney proceeds. A BYE will not.

Assuming, that since you won a Regional you're a better than average player and have a great chance at winning both games, is the 1 WSW pt gained and an unknown number of future SoS worth that risk of losing all your 2 PP, maybe all?

Decide wisely for the fate of the nation rests in your hands.

-tpl

Edit: typos
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Bryan Blumklotz
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kingjames01 wrote:
That's going to be a tough decision I think.

In the old system, 6 prestige points represented a large gap in the standings and was fairly tough to close.

With fewer available prestige point distributions per match, I could naively believe that there will be more tied scores right near the cut-off.

Those extra Strength of Schedule points would be more valuable in that situation.

I don't know. Since you submitted the question, have you considered the consequences and, if so, what conclusions have you come to?


Here is how I see it. At World Championships the level of competition is going to be magnitudes tougher than any Regional was. I think that with the numbers of entrants and the compressed Prestige Points available that even after 4 or 5 rounds there are going to be a lot of close calls.

If I am a world caliber player I will take my chances in round 1 and play a live opponent. Here is my reasoning, if I take the bye I am assured no Weak Side Win Points (WSWP) or Strength of Schedule Points (SoSP). If I play I either face an opponent that weaker than me, same level, or (in my case) stronger.

A weaker opponent will at least give me some SoSP (Unless they blank the whole tournament). I will be likely to pick up 2 games and I come out ahead.

A opponent of the same level will either give me a win(s) with decent SoSP potential or I will crash and burn and at least have the SoSP potential.

Stronger opponent. Beating this guy/gal will set me up. I will probably get awesome SoSP from them. Losing to them will put me in the weak side of the rankings where I can rack up some wins and probably have a good SoSP at the end of qualifiers, provided I don't choke working my way back up to the middle.

The real question is, is the Bye a choice or automatic. I don't have the wording of the winners sheet in front of me (I didn't win my Regional Championship) so I don't know if you get a choice.

My two credits on this...
 
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Billy Martin
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Unless you expect a 100% chance of winning both of your first round games, you should probably take the bye, because even a small number of expected prestige points is worth more than all the tiebreakers in the world.
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David Jensen
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Taking the bye is a no brainer. Not even really worth discussing.
 
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Bryan Blumklotz
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jopejope wrote:
Unless you expect a 100% chance of winning both of your first round games, you should probably take the bye, because even a small number of expected prestige points is worth more than all the tiebreakers in the world.


If I were you jopejope (or Alexfrog, Orange Devil, Hollis), yep. But I am not and I usually find myself in the middle of the pack near the cut off. For me tie-breakers are important. All I would do from taking a bye in round one is pumping someone else's SoSP.

One more thing, having run a tournament under the new rules there are a lot of ties because there are fewer points to spread the field out. This will effect who you see from round to round and those tie-breakers are going to be much more important than you think for small fields and large ones.

I would avoid the 1st round Bye at all costs for Naionals at GenCon because there will be a huge field and not enough qualifying Swiss rounds to distinguish the pack.

Worlds on the other hand is a question of how many Regional Champions take the bye. If most of them do and you are confident that you will secure 1st round victory in both games then you will have an advantage over everyone else that didn't. If most don't take the Bye then keeping the auto 4 prestige might be better.
 
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James W
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Saracenus wrote:
jopejope wrote:
Unless you expect a 100% chance of winning both of your first round games, you should probably take the bye, because even a small number of expected prestige points is worth more than all the tiebreakers in the world.


If I were you jopejope (or Alexfrog, Orange Devil, Hollis), yep. But I am not and I usually find myself in the middle of the pack near the cut off. For me tie-breakers are important. All I would do from taking a bye in round one is pumping someone else's SoSP.

One more thing, having run a tournament under the new rules there are a lot of ties because there are fewer points to spread the field out. This will effect who you see from round to round and those tie-breakers are going to be much more important than you think for small fields and large ones.

I would avoid the 1st round Bye at all costs for Naionals at GenCon because there will be a huge field and not enough qualifying Swiss rounds to distinguish the pack.

Worlds on the other hand is a question of how many Regional Champions take the bye. If most of them do and you are confident that you will secure 1st round victory in both games then you will have an advantage over everyone else that didn't. If most don't take the Bye then keeping the auto 4 prestige might be better.


These are pretty much my feelings exactly. I don't think that accepting the bye is a no-brainer.


To continue the discussion:

First, what is the format at Worlds? Am I correct in thinking that there will be some number of Swiss rounds followed by a cut into Single Elims?

If that's the case, then naively, there will be a lot of tied scores. Saracenus has even corroborated that statement with personal experience so it's a scenario that is not out of the question.

Next, assuming that there is a cut to Single Elims, then is the 2 extra Prestige Points gained by accepting the bye (on average, assuming a complete random outcome in every round, between equally skilled players for the purpose of discussion) worth more than the roughly 2 Strength of Schedule points multiplied by the number of Swiss rounds?

If I end up in that tie-breaker having accepted the bye in the first round, I would have MUCH less SoS points to fall back on.

 
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This analysis seems to assume that all of the 1st round competitors are weak players, but the more regionals champions use this line of thinking and decide to waive their byes, the stiffer the 1st round competition gets and thus the more valuable the byes become.
 
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Bryan Blumklotz
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James,

Here is the rub from not taking the bye in round 1 at worlds.

If you choke and get shut out you are in a fundamentally worse place than taking the bye (getting only 1 Prestige Point from timing out round 2 is not much better).

A 2-2 split is damaging but recoverable (you still have a win to help you in your first tie-breaker sort). You are under pressure now to not drop another game.

A 4-0 shutout is your desired result because now you have given yourself 2 wins and any SoSP that your round 1 opponent gives you.



 
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DrTall wrote:
This analysis seems to assume that all of the 1st round competitors are weak players, but the more regionals champions use this line of thinking and decide to waive their byes, the stiffer the 1st round competition gets and thus the more valuable the byes become.


No, actually. I'm expecting the competition to be extremely fierce. Otherwise the tie-breakers would not be an issue.

Suppose after N number of rounds, the cut is to the top X players.

If the top X players win all of their matches with a 4-0 Prestige Point score then those top X will make the cut and this discussion is pointless.

It only matters when not all of the X players win their matches 4-0. In my discussion, I assume for the sake of discussion that everyone, by design, ends up with approximately the same number of PP. There will be some distribution about the cut-off. The top players will all get in. Those battling it out with tied scores will fall back on the SoS.

With the assumption that a Regional champion has just as much chance to win any given match as any other, ie. they are not the cream-of-the-crop, then they will enter the tie-breaker with approximately 2 * N less SoS.

In that scenario, the Regional champion has been punished for accepting their bye.
 
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Saracenus wrote:
James,

Here is the rub from not taking the bye in round 1 at worlds.

If you choke and get shut out you are in a fundamentally worse place than taking the bye (getting only 1 Prestige Point from timing out round 2 is not much better).

A 2-2 split is damaging but recoverable (you still have a win to help you in your first tie-breaker sort). You are under pressure now to not drop another game.

A 4-0 shutout is your desired result because now you have given yourself 2 wins and any SoSP that your round 1 opponent gives you.





Yes, exactly.

To add to that, a 2-2 split in the first round will still give you the SoS earned from that first player and you will face other opponents who earned a 2-2 split.

If you accept the 4-0 bye, then you will have to face an opponent who either also accepted a 4-0 bye or won their first round 4-0. Either way, you've missed out on the extra SoS and now you're matched up with presumably stronger players.

 
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Sebastian Barth
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For the non-US readers: the GenCon tournament is pretty much around the corner, right?

edit: But it doesn't matter there, derp
 
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Bryan Blumklotz
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GenCon probably not. Even if folks drop out and there is an odd number of players there are enough people that want to get in that you would have an even number of players. On the off chance that events conspire to start the GenCon tourney with an odd number of players it would totally suck to be a strong player given the bye.

After that the bye goes to the weakest player in each round.
 
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Saracenus wrote:
QUESTION:
Bye scoring. The participant that gets the bye during a Swiss round gets 4 prestige points. They get no strength of schedule.

Do they get a win as Corp and Player with the 4 prestige? This will have an impact upon their ranking if a bye round does not count as a Corp and Runner win.

ANSWER:
Thanks for the question. The player with the bye will not receive credit for a Corp or Runner win. We will update the tournament rules to reflect this.

--
Lukas Litzsinger
Game Designer
Fantasy Flight Games


I got the same reply from Lukas today. Good thing I checked first before posting another thread on this topic.
 
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Billy Martin
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Saracenus wrote:
jopejope wrote:
Unless you expect a 100% chance of winning both of your first round games, you should probably take the bye, because even a small number of expected prestige points is worth more than all the tiebreakers in the world.


If I were you jopejope (or Alexfrog, Orange Devil, Hollis), yep. But I am not and I usually find myself in the middle of the pack near the cut off. For me tie-breakers are important. All I would do from taking a bye in round one is pumping someone else's SoSP.


If you're a weaker player that is all the more reason to take the bye, as you can't be as confident that you will win both of your 1st round games. One single prestige point trumps all the tiebreakers. If you normally find yourself "near the cutoff" then if you take that 1st round bye you will likely be up a prestige point or two on average so you will suddenly be well within qualifying territory and not have to worry about tiebreakers.

Even if you are very confident that in the 1st round you will pair up with a weaker player, Netrunner is not Chess. You can easily just lose to the runner scoring 7 points off a Maker's Eye or all your agendas are buried, or whatever. No-one can be 100% sure that they'll win those first two games.
 
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Bryan Blumklotz
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DrTall wrote:
This analysis seems to assume that all of the 1st round competitors are weak players, but the more Regional Champions use this line of thinking and decide to waive their byes, the stiffer the 1st round competition gets and thus the more valuable the byes become.


Actually my assumption is that you are a very strong player if you have won a Regional tournament and that there will be a mix of journeyman to strong level players who buy their way into round one of Worlds. I do not think giving up the Bye is a "gimme".

This is where game theory comes in. How many of the very strong players are going to give up a Bye round?

If a bunch of them do I am now facing a high level of variance of who I could be facing in round 1. Now standing pat is a better strategy.

If only a few do it then I am assuming the risk that I could get shut out for the reward of putting myself in a stronger position if I am in a tie breaker.

If you think you are going to win every game anyway then this is not a decision you need to make. But as soon as you drop 1 or 2 games you are going to be facing a lot of others that have done the same and your Prestige Points suddenly are not as important as your Weak Side Wins and Strength of Schedule.

Another consideration for taking the Bye rather than waiving it comes down to endurance. If there is 5 rounds of Swiss leading to a cut, then coming in fresher with 4 prestige may be enough of an advantage on its own. By the time you hit the late rounds some players are going to loose focus and are more vulnerable. A lot of folks are going to travel quite a distance to get to this tourney and sleep and focus will play a roll.


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Billy Martin
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I'm assuming that this decision is based on the objective of qualifying for the finals and/or winning the tournament. If you just want to play games and you don't plan on winning the tournament, obviously you should reject the bye as that's one less match you can play. Also, if for some reason getting the cutoff number of prestige and then failing to qualify on a tiebreaker would be a particularly devastating outcome for you then you could choose to reject the bye in order to ensure you won't come so close before being eliminated.
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Bryan Blumklotz
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jopejope wrote:
If you're a weaker player that is all the more reason to take the bye, as you can't be as confident that you will win both of your 1st round games. One single prestige point trumps all the tiebreakers. If you normally find yourself "near the cutoff" then if you take that 1st round bye you will likely be up a prestige point or two on average so you will suddenly be well within qualifying territory and not have to worry about tiebreakers.

Even if you are very confident that in the 1st round you will pair up with a weaker player, Netrunner is not Chess. You can easily just lose to the runner scoring 7 points off a Maker's Eye or all your agendas are buried, or whatever. No-one can be 100% sure that they'll win those first two games.


Maybe its the old poker player in me that looks for positional play. I am definitely a tier below you and the folks I mentioned. I guess it comes down to what level of risk you are willing to take on. For you 4 prestige is a very strong position to take and frankly the correct call. For me 2+ prestige with tie breaker advantage puts me in a stronger spot in round 2. All the guys that won 4-0 in round one are now going to face each other and some of you Regional Champions in round 2. On paper I will have good position in round 3 and I will have to put up or shut up at that point.

You are absolutely correct you can take a bad beat in this game no mater what your skill level. A bad corp draw and mulligan into crap will sink you. A bad deck match up (say a brain damage deck vs. your tag-me Gabe archetype with no brain damage protection built in) is also a possibility.

I want to see a tournament report with the new rules in play with a large field 30+ players. I would be curious how much the tie-breakers play a role. My tournament was very small (6 players) and after 3 rounds the winner was determined by Strength of Schedule. Had there been 7 players then the Bye would have distorted the result.

Worlds is going to be a weird beast because you have more than a single round one bye in the mix and a large field. If tie-breakers are going to be as important as I think they are with large fields then it is going to make the bye an interesting choice.

jopejope wrote:
I'm assuming that this decision is based on the objective of qualifying for the finals and/or winning the tournament. If you just want to play games and you don't plan on winning the tournament, obviously you should reject the bye as that's one less match you can play. Also, if for some reason getting the cutoff number of prestige and then failing to qualify on a tiebreaker would be a particularly devastating outcome for you then you could choose to reject the bye in order to ensure you won't come so close before being eliminated.


Yep, this decision would be based on the goal of qualifying for finals and or winning the tournament (though cutting to single elimination does bring in more variation that can knock you out, just ask Alexfrog about the final round of our Regional Championship in Portland, OR).
 
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David Jensen
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Have you played in a tournament?

You want every prestige possible. You can lose as easily to bad luck in the second tier moving you down to the bottom as you can easily lose in the higher tiers. Why risk moving down to the lowest when given an opportunity to be tiered higher?

This makes no sense to give up those points.
 
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Piotr Jekel
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Wow, I am really amazed that someone is even considering giving up earned 4 PP. Withe new scoring rules, it is really a no-brainer. There will be MANY tied matches and guaranteed 4 PP to kick things off is the way to go
 
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Bryan Blumklotz
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notyetsuperman wrote:
Have you played in a tournament?

You want every prestige possible. You can lose as easily to bad luck in the second tier moving you down to the bottom as you can easily lose in the higher tiers. Why risk moving down to the lowest when given an opportunity to be tiered higher?

This makes no sense to give up those points.


David, I like you. I do. You know I play in tournaments and you know I organize them here in Portland, OR. So, take a different tone with me.

Your always take the points call holds more weight with me when you got 6 Prestige for it. Having played in a tournament just this last weekend I got an up close and personal look at how bunched up the scores can get.

Taking out "the match win" in Swiss rounds means you got to win every damn game to stay at the tippy-top of a ranking list. And as Alexfrog so eloquently spoke about in his Portland Regionals play write up, variance is a cruel mistress. It only take one bad round and suddenly you are smack dab in the pack instead of safe.

Now in a normal meta losing a single game is not a big deal (though 2 will hurt) this all changes when you are facing a brutally tough meta at Worlds. This is going to be further distorted in round 2 when all the Regional Champions enter the fray after their Byes. Combine this with a large field and the likelihood of big blocks of tied Prestige Points is going to be high. What will break those ties...

Now I could be wrong and a very large field over 4 or 5 rounds might separate enough that taking 4 Prestige Points is very important, more important than tie breakers.

Right now its my gut telling me that tie-breakers are going to matter at Worlds (something I wasn't worried about under the old tournament rules) and I want to see more data from the new system before I make a final determination.

 
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