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Subject: Tokens and Wonders rss

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John Jackson
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The rules say "... An explorer token can only be converted during a crisis or when a player performs an action requiring one or more resources..." (Emphasis mine).

Question: Can a token be used to supply a resource for building a 'Wonder' ?

Possible Answers:

No. Playing an 'Evolution Card' is NOT an 'Action'

Yes. Since performing an 'Action' typically requires use of a 'Disc', and building a Wonder requires a 'Disc', then a token can be used.

Which is correct?

Many thanks for any help.
 
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Grant Holzhauer
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I would say definitely. I consider wonders to be special actions. That, and I don't see how it could unbalance the game (such as using Exploration tokens to fulfill an end-game condition or VP condition).
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Rollo Tomosi
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John-

The bold highlighted text from your query would appear to make it unequivocal. I mean-one could take the next logical step-which would be to ask "Is building a "wonder" an action requiring one or more resources?" Well-whatever it is, I am sure we can all agree that it requires one or more resources....so this question distills down to-"Is building a "wonder", an action?"

Seems rhetorical-but the answer is 'yes.'

Yes. Building a "wonder" is an action.
Yes. Building a "wonder" is an action that requires one or more resources.
Yes. An explore token may be used in lieu of one of said resources.

ajax2647 wrote:
The rules say "... An explorer token can only be converted during a crisis or when a player performs an action requiring one or more resources..." (Emphasis mine).

Question: Can a token be used to supply a resource for building a 'Wonder' ?

Possible Answers:

No. Playing an 'Evolution Card' is NOT an 'Action'

Yes. Since performing an 'Action' typically requires use of a 'Disc', and building a Wonder requires a 'Disc', then a token can be used.

Which is correct?

Many thanks for any help.
 
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John Jackson
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Thanks guys for the lightning response!
 
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Ben
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How is it that you came to conclude that the answer is yes?

I don't know what the answer is, and I don't see anything in the rulebook that really supports either interpretation. You have simply asserted that it is an action. Why?

Dark_Knight wrote:
Seems rhetorical-but the answer is 'yes.'

Yes. Building a "wonder" is an action.
Yes. Building a "wonder" is an action that requires one or more resources.
Yes. An explore token may be used in lieu of one of said resources.

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Grant Holzhauer
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I'd say the only way it could be No is if you can use an action disc on the wheel and then use a second action disc on the Wonder card.

So I would say that makes it a special action. I'd argue the rules support this by saying you don't activate the card, but you build (emphasis in the rulebook).
 
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Grant Holzhauer
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Okay, I'm starting to second-guess myself. Regarding using actions, it says that you continue using action discs until you run out, or until you cannot use anymore. That means that it's possibly that you simply skip using an action.

However, that being said, I see no reason why using an exploration token for a resource here is any different than using one to build a temple, for example. It would not effect game balance in the slightest.
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Ben
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dojogrant wrote:
However, that being said, I see no reason why using an exploration token for a resource here is any different than using one to build a temple, for example. It would not effect game balance in the slightest.


I agree with this, and this is how I would play. But I don't think the rulebook specifies one way or another.


With respect to the action disks, you never skip using an action disk during phase 5. You must play one action disk to the action board and you may also (before or after) use one card and/or one market/port. The action disk you use to build the wonder is in addition to your normal action disk placement for the turm, so sometimes one player is out of disks before the other players. The player who is out of disks still gets to take his turn (using cards and markets/ports, if possible).
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Rollo Tomosi
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You're kidding-right? I presume so-
But on the off chance you are not if I recall correctly (and I unfortunately forgot to keep score) you were the fellow gamer who took some extra time and patience with me wayyyy back when I thought 'engaged' meant engaged-and were kind enough to explain to me that 'engaged' doesn't mean engaged in Archipelago where the Boelinger Uncertainty Principle reigns. In point of fact, now that I think about it-that's where ALL this began, because from there it was made clear that one can harvest multiple times from the same icon on the same turn, markets (but not ports) may be used an infinite number of times, etc.

Here is a partial return of that kindness.

Printed in several places (including the rulebook and backs of player screens is:

Game Turn

Each turn is divided into 6 phases which must be played in this order.

1. Disengagement
2. Order of Play
3. Population Effects
4. Balance of the Archipelago
5. Actions*
6. Evolution Card Purchase

You with me so far?

Okay....now look at Phase 5 entitled "Actions"

Lange's Theorem of Words: A word means what a word means.

Thus 'Actions" are actions.

NOTE: There is an asterisk indicating a footnote at the end of the word "Actions"


Footnote states:
*In the order of your choice:
-Play one action
-Use a character or progress card
-Use a market or port

that second one...right there....."Use a character or progress card"....that is what we do when we build a "wonder", specifically, we use a progress card.

Using a progress card thus is an action. An action is an "Action", thus using a progress card which requires resources would be an example of 'an action which requires resources'
chally wrote:
How is it that you came to conclude that the answer is yes?

I don't know what the answer is, and I don't see anything in the rulebook that really supports either interpretation. You have simply asserted that it is an action. Why?

Dark_Knight wrote:
Seems rhetorical-but the answer is 'yes.'

Yes. Building a "wonder" is an action.
Yes. Building a "wonder" is an action that requires one or more resources.
Yes. An explore token may be used in lieu of one of said resources.

 
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Ben
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Dark_Knight wrote:
You're kidding-right?
Nope. But I appreciate the returned kindness.

Dark_Knight wrote:
Okay....now look at Phase 5 entitled "Actions"

Lange's Theorem of Words: A word means what a word means.

Thus 'Actions" are actions.

NOTE: There is an asterisk indicating a footnote at the end of the word "Actions"


Footnote states:
*In the order of your choice:
-Play one action
-Use a character or progress card
-Use a market or port

that second one...right there....."Use a character or progress card"....that is what we do when we build a "wonder", specifically, we use a progress card.


EDIT: I sometimes sound unduly curt when I am in a hurry. Cleaned up to reflect intended tone.



I believe I see where we disagree. As I read it, the phase is merely titled "Actions." I don't believe that the tile indicates that everything that follows is a list of "actions." (Note the other phase titles, e.g., "Balance of the Archipelago" clearly indicate titles - almost like book chapter titles - and not definitions.) Similarly, I don't believe that everything that happens in the Actions phase is an "action" just by virtue of it happening in that phase.

So then we look more closely at what happens in the Actions phase. During the Actions phase you do three things:

1. You must play one action

(I assume that these qualify as "actions," since the rules call them "actions." This is probably where the name of the phase comes from.)

In addition to playing one action, you may:

2. Use a character or progress card.
3. Use a market or port.

We agree that building a Wonder falls within "use a progress card," not within "play one action."

Given that the only mandatory thing in the Actions phase are actually called "actions," and the optional things in the phase are not explicitly called "actions," I don't think the semantic argument weighs in your favor here. It seems that there are a particular subset of things in this phase that are "actions" and building Wonders is not in that subset.

Again, I don't presume to know the designer's intent here. I'm not saying you're wrong, I just don't think the answer is apparent in the rules. It seems to me a very open question.

Personally, I would use discovery tokens to build Wonders, but only because I think it makes for a better game, not because I think it's the correct way to play.
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Rollo Tomosi
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Looking a bit more closely at the matter I can see that you have a perfectly valid point. The note with the 1f coin and words 'market' and 'port' (Rulebook Version 1 Page 8, bottom right) has 2 sentences, the first clearly bolsters your argument, as it states "The port and market are not considered action zones."

NOTE: This effectively kills the 'backdoor' I had always used (which was, when I needed a resource, to spend the 1f on either a port or market I owned, and sell the Explore Token for the highest price I could, then immediately, as my 2nd transaction at said port/market, buy the needed resource). Have to remember I can't do that anymore. As I have said many times before-one needs almost a map of every single possible situation to see what might be able to be done at that juncture.

The second sentence says "They receive florins instead of action discs." (IMPLYING that "receiving" an action disc is what defines an action). As previously discussed, to build a wonder one must SPEND an action disc (or two), not "use" them. I am frankly too fearful at this point to go out on a limb and state whether 'receiving' an action disc is either 'using' or 'spending' or either or both....the Boelinger Uncertainty Principle is just unstoppable!







chally wrote:
Dark_Knight wrote:
You're kidding-right?
Nope. But I appreciate the returned kindness.

Dark_Knight wrote:
Okay....now look at Phase 5 entitled "Actions"

Lange's Theorem of Words: A word means what a word means.

Thus 'Actions" are actions.

NOTE: There is an asterisk indicating a footnote at the end of the word "Actions"


Footnote states:
*In the order of your choice:
-Play one action
-Use a character or progress card
-Use a market or port

that second one...right there....."Use a character or progress card"....that is what we do when we build a "wonder", specifically, we use a progress card.


EDIT: I sometimes sound unduly curt when I am in a hurry. Cleaned up to reflect intended tone.



I believe I see where we disagree. As I read it, the phase is merely titled "Actions." I don't believe that the tile indicates that everything that follows is a list of "actions." (Note the other phase titles, e.g., "Balance of the Archipelago" clearly indicate titles - almost like book chapter titles - and not definitions.) Similarly, I don't believe that everything that happens in the Actions phase is an "action" just by virtue of it happening in that phase.

So then we look more closely at what happens in the Actions phase. During the Actions phase you do three things:

1. You must play one action

(I assume that these qualify as "actions," since the rules call them "actions." This is probably where the name of the phase comes from.)

In addition to playing one action, you may:

2. Use a character or progress card.
3. Use a market or port.

We agree that building a Wonder falls within "use a progress card," not within "play one action."

Given that the only mandatory thing in the Actions phase are actually called "actions," and the optional things in the phase are not explicitly called "actions," I don't think the semantic argument weighs in your favor here. It seems that there are a particular subset of things in this phase that are "actions" and building Wonders is not in that subset.

Again, I don't presume to know the designer's intent here. I'm not saying you're wrong, I just don't think the answer is apparent in the rules. It seems to me a very open question.

Personally, I would use discovery tokens to build Wonders, but only because I think it makes for a better game, not because I think it's the correct way to play.
 
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J M
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You don't lose your action discs when using them to build wonders. They are used that turn, but you get them back at start of the Evo phase. All of them. You never lose an action disc permanently. Simple enough.

And yes, a wonder is using a card, not using an action disc to perform an action. An action is something where you place your action disc on the action wheel to do something specific--explore, tax, harvest, etc.

On a turn where you want to build a wonder and that wonder requires the usage of an action disc or two, then you place available disc(s) on the wonder card when you activate it. If you have any discs left over you MUST perform an action on the action wheel. If you don't have any left after building the wonder, then you cannot perform an action on your turn but you may still use a market or port that turn, and on ensuing turns (if other players still have discs to play) you can still use a progress card or market/port, you just can't perform an action because you don't have an available action disc.
 
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P. oeppel
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My interpretation of exchanging explorer tokens "when required" is that you can do it whenever you need (give away) a ressource cube.

So the other way around, it simply means that you cannot simply exchange tokens to deplete bank ressources or collect ressources for an objective.

I'm a bit hesitant about being able to sell them to the market, but I'd guess I am liberal here and allow it.

You could of course argue that using a port or market is "not an action", but then, they simply extend the basic "Trade" action, which would probably allow selling exchanged tokens to the market (if there are still matching cubes in the bank).

This does not contradict my point about end-game objectives above, since you need to do something (use an action or one of your buildings which limit the "amount") to move the cube from the bank to the market. so you can't willy-nilly exchange a bunch of tokens in one go and cause a sudden (eh...even "more" sudden than normal in a game of Archipelago) end of the game.

But as I said, just my interpretation and the way I play.
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Fabrice Wiels
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Alcahaelas wrote:
And yes, a wonder is using a card, not using an action disc to perform an action. An action is something where you place your action disc on the action wheel to do something specific--explore, tax, harvest, etc.

On a turn where you want to build a wonder and that wonder requires the usage of an action disc or two, then you place available disc(s) on the wonder card when you activate it. If you have any discs left over you MUST perform an action on the action wheel. If you don't have any left after building the wonder, then you cannot perform an action on your turn but you may still use a market or port that turn, and on ensuing turns (if other players still have discs to play) you can still use a progress card or market/port, you just can't perform an action because you don't have an available action disc.


This is the right answer.

On your turn, you can :

- play an action (with an action disc on the action board)

- use a card (sometimes, it needs an action disc to activate, and that's the case when you build a wonder)

- use ONE port OR ONE market

- exchange, negociate, trade, whatever you want with your fellow players (trade of resources with promises of sex are generally accepted between consenting adults).

whistle

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Rollo Tomosi
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"...trade of resources with promises of sex are generally accepted between consenting adults."

The Archipelago group is, hands down, the most bizarre corner of BGG I have ever run across

Sherinford wrote:
Alcahaelas wrote:
And yes, a wonder is using a card, not using an action disc to perform an action. An action is something where you place your action disc on the action wheel to do something specific--explore, tax, harvest, etc.

On a turn where you want to build a wonder and that wonder requires the usage of an action disc or two, then you place available disc(s) on the wonder card when you activate it. If you have any discs left over you MUST perform an action on the action wheel. If you don't have any left after building the wonder, then you cannot perform an action on your turn but you may still use a market or port that turn, and on ensuing turns (if other players still have discs to play) you can still use a progress card or market/port, you just can't perform an action because you don't have an available action disc.


This is the right answer.

On your turn, you can :

- play an action (with an action disc on the action board)

- use a card (sometimes, it needs an action disc to activate, and that's the case when you build a wonder)

- use ONE port OR ONE market

- exchange, negociate, trade, whatever you want with your fellow players (trade of resources with promises of sex are generally accepted between consenting adults).

:whistle:

 
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Nate Walker
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Dark_Knight wrote:
The Archipelago group is, hands down, the most bizarre corner of BGG I have ever run across


You don't like the game. You don't play the game. Perhaps you should stay out of this bizarre corner.
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Sebastian
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Well, since there is a solo variant available I think he plays the game using the Rollo rules. A buyer's cut (like a director's cut from an uninvolved person). The rules are quiet clear: Using ressource symbols more than once a turn, loosing action discs, using markets (or harbors?) more than once a round. I am note 100% sure about the other changes from the original rules.
 
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