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Subject: Arguably Bad Deck Combinations rss

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Ben Parker
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A lot of the decks go together well, but I've run across one only one so far that didn't work at all, listed first, and another that wasn't very fun.

Where bad = not good.

Ghosts and Plants

Plants have lots of card-draw, leaving you with a full hand.
Ghosts have many effects which do not activate unless you have 2 or less cards in your hand.

These two decks came in the first expansion, and combo well with some of the base decks, but do not go together at all in my opinion.

Also, my some combinations have lots of combo potential, adding extra plays beyond the base "play one minion and one action," providing lots of fun. But what you want to avoid is choosing two factions which do NOT provide any extra actions. One such combination I found is

Where bad = not fun

Tricksters and Dinosaurs.


I played them in my first ever game and there was hardly any combo potential. Tricksters have lots of pillow forts and Dinosaurs have lots of beefy guys. I won that game, for what that's worth, but I didn't have fun! Because I could only do two things a turn the whole gsme long!

What combos of factions do you think don't work?
 
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J
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I have some things to say but first I would like to ask you something. Your complaints about Ghosts and Plants was this based on an actual game or is it speculation?

Second your comment about

Quote:
But what you want to avoid is choosing two factions which do NOT provide any extra actions.

Did you actually mean extra "actions" and if so are you saying that any combination which has absolutely no way to play extra actions is unfun? If so you should be aware that of the 12 factions currently released only 5/12 have abilities allowing them to play extra "actions" at some point during their turn. Of these 5 factions 2 of them only have 1 action card that states "this card can be played as a base is breaking" so they don't really provide "extra" actions.

Sadly if this is the case you are going to find a lot of the combinations in this game pretty unfun. Most combinations only can play 1 action per turn which is pretty common. Combinations that can play more than one action per turn are actually relatively rare. Anything combines with Wizards, Ghosts or Steampunk can play more than one action per turn. Ninja's and Pirates each have 1 action card that can be played as a base is scoring which is like an extra action.
 
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howl hollow howl
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and Tricksters have Mist...
 
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Ben Parker
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no you've taken me too literally. I shouldn't have used actions in that context. I mean doing extra "things," whether its playing minions or whatever! Some decks have very few things that allow you to do more than two "things" a turn. And yes both the combinations I mention are ones I've actually played in real life. I was hoping others would have combinations they have tried that they found weren't that strong.
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J
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Okay that's what I thought and I wanted to make sure I understood you before I commented. in that case in this game I've concluded that all factions can fall into one of 2 categories.

The first category I've dubbed "reliable" factions. A reliable faction is one that can draw cards very well. These factions also usually have the ability to play extra cards which makes sense when you consider that they are drawing a lot of extra cards. Drawing and playing more cards is very very desirable because what I've found to be the biggest hindrance in a combo is getting unlucky draws a few turns in a row and being unable to make meaningful plays. Being good at drawing more cards and in turn playing more of those drawn cards does a lot to ensure your deck will consistently be able to make good plays. Further there is no faction in this game that doesn't want to both drawn and play more cards. The 4 factions I see as falling under this category are are Robots, Wizards, Zombies (who indirectly draw more cards be recovering them from the discard), and Plants and yes that includes all these factions paired up with Ghosts (If you want me to go into more detail about Ghost combos I can).

All the other Factions I consider "Unreliable" factions due to being more reliant on drawing what they need at the end of turn.

Now I actually don't think any combo is particularly bad. Every factions has strong points and brings something unique to the combinations and I believe utilizing those unique advantages well is usually the key to winning (although there is one faction I have some issues with due to being a little more unreliable than all the others which will go unnamed rather than risk derailing the thread).

That being said I've found the number of players a huge factor in a faction's performance. Every faction and every combo performs well or at least adequate for me in 2 or 3 player where you have more turns so more options to drawn and play cards and bad luck is less crippling. However in 4 player I find a lot of factions, mostly the unreliable ones, can end up just stonewalled due to poor draws or funky playing from opponents.

For example Pirates and Dinosaurs have the lowest potential to drawn and play more cards than any other faction so I really hate getting either of them without a reliable faction in 4 players. If the opponents manage to attack their minions a lot they really have no way to recover. Trickster's base lock-down potential dissipates in 4 player due to there being more bases and as a result they perform poorly in 4 player more often too although their Enshrouding Mist card is one of the best "play on base" cards in the game.
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Jeremy
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I actually did really well the last time I had plants and ghosts.

The ability of the plants to get specific cards let me get the ones that I wanted so I could keep a lean mean hand. I actually found them to be very efficient.
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M. B. Downey
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allstar64 wrote:
re cards. The 4 factions I see as falling under this category are are Robots, Wizards, Zombies (who indirectly draw more cards be recovering them from the discard), and Plants and yes that includes all these factions paired up with Ghosts (If you want me to go into more detail about Ghost combos I can).

For example Pirates and Dinosaurs have the lowest potential to drawn and play more cards than any other faction so I really hate getting either of them without a reliable faction in 4 players.


If you are playing four players and there are four "reliable" factions, you can always pick one of them as your first draft. Then pick an "unreliable" faction second. Problem solved!
 
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J
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downeymb wrote:

If you are playing four players and there are four "reliable" factions, you can always pick one of them as your first draft. Then pick an "unreliable" faction second. Problem solved!


Not all players play or want to play with a draft as it will often cause players to pick the same or similar combinations over and over again. Hence your right that when playing with a draft you can always pick one of the reliable factions and then any other faction but if you are not playing with a draft this option won't always be available to you.

That being said I don't really like 4 player Smash Up anymore due to the higher emphasis on getting lucky and I would agree that if all players always had one of the 4 reliable factions you would on average have more interesting games and yes it would solve the problem of getting an unlucky combinations.
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M. B. Downey
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Oh, I assumed we were discussing things with RAW. If you implement a house rule, then yes, that could have unintended consequences.
 
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J
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Good point. I never noticed that the rulebook didn't suggest randomly dealing out factions as a way of determining who gets what. My bad. I always thought that the "Kickin’ It Queensberry" was a suggestion on how to pick factions namely because I don't understand what "Kickin’ It Queensberry" means.
 
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Ken H.
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allstar64 wrote:
Good point. I never noticed that the rulebook didn't suggest randomly dealing out factions as a way of determining who gets what. My bad. I always thought that the "Kickin’ It Queensberry" was a suggestion on how to pick factions namely because I don't understand what "Kickin’ It Queensberry" means.


I would assume that section is an optional rule, since it says it's "for formal play".
 
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Ben Parker
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yeah I've left my copy at my friend's house but I'm pretty sure the rules assume you're going to just have a favorite combo and that's what you'll get to play, and adds the Queensbury option in case of conflicts.

I felt Ghosts and Plants didn't work because Ghosts have cards that offer you to discard, but very few cards that allow you to reanimate or play from the graveyard. It really seems like they were designed to pair with Zombies mainly, who fill that hole in the Ghost deck. That's just my first impression. I felt like the card draw in plants was hugely at odds with cards in Ghosts like their champion who you can only reanimate from the graveyard if you have two or less cards in hand; or a few of the cards which you could only play if its the last card in your hand!
 
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Mark Wootton
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Kinda.

The draft rules are in there are the "formal" or correct way to play. But we did not feel that Smash Up is the kind of game that we wanted to be insisting on too much rigidity.

So if you want to play "according to the book" you draft. That is, if you like, the "Marquis of Queensbury rules" (a boxing reference for those that do not know). But you know what, it is Smash Up, have fun!

Personally when I play, the draft is actually a very big part of the fun and strategy and was always intended to be such - but then stopping the guys I game with getting their favourite killer combo is always good

Mark



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