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Subject: When can you muster the Mouth? rss

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Ira Fay
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I couldn't find this in the FAQ:

If the fellowship is revealed in Minas Morgul, can I get the Mouth because they are in Mordor?


Thanks,

Ira
 
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Philip Thomas
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Yes. The Mouth can happen when the Fellowship is in Mordor, or when all Fellowship nations are at war.
 
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Kevin Chapman
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No, the Fellowship is not "in Mordor" until it is on the Mordor Track.
 
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Derek Coon
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If the fellowship is declared in Minas morgul or Morannon then it is move to the first step of the Mordor track and is considered to be "in Mordor". At this point the Mouth can be Mustered. If it is revealed at either of those places then you have the situation where extra hunt tiles need to be drawn, and the fellowship needs to hide in order to declare at the start of the next turn and move into Mordor.
 
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Philip Thomas
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Ok, I'll stop making a fool of myself now. Well, maybe not, but I can try...
 
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Ira Fay
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Krieghund wrote:
No, the Fellowship is not "in Mordor" until it is on the Mordor Track.


This makes sense, but is there anything you can site in the rules or in the FAQ that backs it up?

It might also make sense that the fellowship is "in Mordor" when they're in Morannon or Minas Morgal.

Thank you!

Ira
 
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Philip Thomas
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Minas Morgul was originally Minas Ithil and part of the realm of Gondor: Mordor doesn't start until you get past Torech Ungol.

The Morannon were also Gondor built. However, the spaces on the map depict rather more space than merely the fortresses, so you could argue either way. They are in the Sauron nation, but that clearly isn't enough, otherwise the fellowship being in Moria would allow you to muster the Mouth...
 
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Kevin Chapman
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ira212 wrote:
Krieghund wrote:
No, the Fellowship is not "in Mordor" until it is on the Mordor Track.


This makes sense, but is there anything you can site in the rules or in the FAQ that backs it up?

It might also make sense that the fellowship is "in Mordor" when they're in Morannon or Minas Morgal.

On page 21 under The Fellowship in Mordor, it says "As soon as the Fellowship is declared to be in Minas Morgul or Morannon during the Fellowship Phase..." and proceeds to outline the rules for the Fellowship in Mordor. I agree it is not directly stated, but the logical conclusion is that the Fellowship is not "in Mordor" until these conditions are met.
 
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Magic. Geek
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Ask yourself.
'Where is the fellowship?'

If they are revealed in Minas Morgul, they are in Mordor.
If they are not in Mordor, where are they?

The Mouth says he can be played when they get to Mordor.
Not on the track in Mordor.

If there is official errata, now please.
 
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Philip Thomas
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They are in Morgul Vale, part of Ithilien...the first step on the track is probably the Straight Stair...
 
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Magic. Geek
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Which province on the map is 'Morgul Vale' and the 'Straight Stair'?

If it is in Ithillian then you would be revealed in Ithillian, Nth or Sth. And I would not draw an extra tile.

devil

If I draw an extra tile because the fellowship are on a stronghold, they are on a stronghold. That stronghold is in Mordor, just like the fellowship.

 
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Sean McCarthy
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There is only one "Mordor" in the rules, and that is the Mordor track. Minas Morgul, Gorgoroth, Morannon etc. are all just adjacent regions belonging to the Sauron nation.
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Magic. Geek
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Adjacent to What? Gorgoroth?
Using your definition Barad Dur is not in Mordor.
Wonder where Sauron lives now, most likely the south of France.

SS-> If Minas Morgul and Morannon are not in Mordor, where are they?

Pits of mordor does not make orcs appear on those circles, obviously they are not Mordor. Mount Gundabad, Moria and Dol Guldur are where Mordor has pits, so can I get the mouth when the FSP get revealed there?

devil

Mordor is very carefully defined with a colourful ring around it.
Looking at the rulebook to see where the coloured ring appears on the map seems very odd indeed.

When the FSP is in Mordor is what it says on the Mouth.

devil

Maybe something went wrong as the game was translated from Italian into English, and then American.
 
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Philip Thomas
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Minas Morgul is Morgul Vale. North and South Ithilien don't cover the whole of Ithilien, just as North and South Rhun don't cover the whole of Rhun.

The Straight stair is the first step on the Mordor track, like I said.
 
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Nick Wright
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This shouldn't be that hard of a question to answer. The 'Mordor' track is stated as being the 'track' of steps up to Mount Doom. Once the Fellowship is on the track, things are set in action that cannot be undone and it is considered to be Mordor at that point on. If the fellowship is revealed prior to revealing, they are not in Mordor (step 1 of the track). I do see the argument behind, you know, the strongholds as the whole area is suppose to be Mordor, but for gamesake purposes they have to be on the track. Look under the section of the rulebook I believe ocncerning 'The Fellowship in Mordor' as that should answer your question. I don't have the rulebook on hand at this moment, but I believe somewhere in the beginning of that section it states that the track itself is the Mordor section of the game and not a 'region' (had another rules question with my friend wanting to use that one card to move me back a 'region' when I'm on the track already, as it isn't really a region but like the Mordor 'void' we determined, heh). Hope this helps any?
 
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Kristofer Bengtsson
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There is only one Mordor in the rules and that is the Mordor Track!

The problem we face here is peoples' great knowledge of Middle earth geography. We know where Mordor's borders are but that is irrelevant as the only Mordor in the rules is the Mordor Track!
 
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Magic. Geek
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There is only one Mordor.
Minas Morgul is in Mordor in the big Instruction book.
 
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Dave J McWeasely
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MG: you know there've been studies that over the internet people can't tell when other people are kidding, but they THINK they can tell. This, perhaps, is the tower of babel in action.

I guess I'm ahead of the curve because I'm not sure if you're kidding. If so: ha ha you got me/us. If not: WAKE UP AND SMELL THE COFFEE!
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Steve Hope
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The great thing about this thread is that it got me to actually read the rulebook again, which reminded me how much I love this game.

I think the rules are pretty clear on the point. If this was the War of the Bling and the Friendship had to get to Zordor, I don't think there'd be any misunderstanding about when they were in Zordor. Like Veldrin said, it's not that the rules are bad, it's that we all know too much about the backstory.

Edit: Gave credit to Veldrin for getting there first.
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Magic. Geek
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OK. I like coffee.
MrWeasely, where is Minas Morgul if it is not in Mordor?

Since no-one wants to give an official answer, MrWeasely when do you believe you can Muster the Mouth?

I have thought a little about this, and sillyness follows any answer that says the mouth appears after they are on the track.
for instance.
1/ The FSP get nailed and revealed in Minas M.
2/ They head back to Minas T.
3/ They get Cruel Weathered and then revealed in Gorgoroth.

Now the Fellowship is in Gorgoroth, but since that is not in Mordor, the Mouth stays home.

Real sillyness involves the Fellowship being in Nurn or Barad Dur and still not being in Mordor. There are a couple of Towers in this game, Barad Dur and Orthanc. Which province one is the Tower of Babel?

devil

When I started playing we got the Mouth when they got on the track.
When we learnt about turn stalling, we got the Mouth with Nazgul Search.
Now we ignore it since everyone is at war, the Mouth arrives and the shadow wins again. So I suppose it really doesn't matter
 
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Philip Thomas
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Magic Geek, do you really get all nations at war using DEW North?
I would have thought Gondor would stay at peace most of the game on this strategy...

The Fellowship doesn't normally head back to Minas Tirith...I have no problem with your saying that if they are in Gorgoroth/Nurn/Barad Dur they are in Mordor.
 
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Kevin Chapman
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Magic Geek offers some compelling arguments, however the rules clearly state that the final leg of the FSP's journey to Mordor is represented in the game by the Mordor Track. Because of this, I have no doubt that the designers' intent in this matter is that the FSP be on the Mordor Track as a prerequisite for mustering the Mouth.

But I also can see how Magic Geek's interpretation could have merit, based on the geography of the map and the wording of the Mouth's character card. I now believe that the rules are sufficiently vague on this issue to warrant adding it to the FAQ to resolve all ambiguity.
 
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Steve Hope
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There is no mention I can find in the rules of Mordor being any region or group of regions. The rules even state explicitly that the FSP is considered "in Mordor" once it is on the track, and the Mouth is allowed to be mustered when the FSP is "in Mordor".

Again, the only confusion here arises from the depth of knowledge that players have about Middle Earth. That's not the fault of the rules, which are clear.
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Kristofer Bengtsson
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Magic Geek,

if this wasn't the game and you could get the Mouth when the Fellowship was in Mordor I'd agree that he would enter the game when the Fellowship was in Morannon or Minas morgul since I know they are part of what J.R.R Tolkien called Mordor in his great literarry work.

But this is the game, and as all games it is governed by specific rules. The rules state that one of the conditions to bring in the Mouth is if the Fellowship is in Mordor. The same rules also defines being in Mordor as being on the Mordor Track.

All your arguments are based on your (and everyone elses) knowledge of Tolkien's books, not the rules of the game.

If the designers had intended the Mouth to be musterable when the Fellowship was in Minas Morgul or Morannon it would say so on his Character Card.
 
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Magic. Geek
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'All your arguments are based on your (and everyone elses) knowledge of Tolkien's books, not the rules of the game.'

Yes.
The box says Tolkien and Lord of the Rings on every side.
I have not read the little instruction pamplette.
I have read the big rule book.

Tolkien says where Mordor is, not you, not me, and not them.
The designers cant have it both ways.

devil

'If the designers had intended the Mouth to be musterable when the Fellowship was in Minas Morgul or Morannon it would say so on his Character Card. '

It does.

The Mouth card says 'in Mordor', not 'on the Mordor Track'.
The Mouth card has rules on it, the 'rules of the game' say you are wrong. Show me errata on the Mouth card, or you are just plain wrong.

devil

Or maybe you are wrong for the next two hours as the rules and errata get written.


Doesn't he step out into Ithillian from Minas Morgul at the Last Battle and get killed?


'Magic Geek' means I have read a lot of cardboard.
I do not care what the designers intended, what they wrote is what matters. Or rewrite

The original version 1 of Magic had a 'Time Walk'.
Time Walk used to read 'Target opponent loses next turn'
Some people seriously thought it meant 'Target opponent LOSES, next turn'.
Now time walk says 'Take an extra turn after this one'

It still isn't fair.

 
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