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Subject: Exile target + When becomes a target, sacrifice: interaction? rss

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Eric O. LEBIGOT
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What happens when a card like Oblivion Ring, which exiles a target:
targets a permanent that must be sacrificed when targeted, like Illusionary Servant:


This situation happened in Duels of the Planeswalkers 2014 (iPad), and the program put the Servant in the graveyard. I was initially expecting it to be exiled.

However, after doing some research, I understand that the program is correct because:
Quote:
603.3d. The remainder of the process for putting a triggered ability on the stack is identical to the process for casting a spell listed in rules 601.2c-d. …
where rule 601.2c indicates that each time a triggered ability is put on the stack, its targets must be chosen immediately:
Quote:
601.2c. The player announces his or her choice of an appropriate … object … for each target the spell requires. …
which triggers the Servant's "sacrifice" triggered ability; the crucial point is that this ability goes immediately on the stack on top of the Ring's exile ability (instead of first resolving the exile), because of rule 116.5, which states that triggered abilities that trigger abilities put them on the stack immediately:
Quote:
116.5. Each time a player would get priority, the game first performs all applicable state-based actions… Then triggered abilities are put on the stack (see rule 603, "Handling Triggered Abilities"). These steps repeat in order until no further state-based actions are performed and no abilities trigger. Then the player who would have received priority does so.
This rule applies because after casting the Ring, a player would receive priority:
Quote:
116.3b. The active player receives priority after a spell or ability (other than a mana ability) resolves.
which triggers any chain of state-based actions and triggered abilities. From there, the first ability to resolve is the Servant's one, and it gets sacrificed. The Ring's exile ability is then countered because the Servant's changed zone ("fizzling" rule 608.2b).

Is this interpretation correct? A confirmation would be much appreciated!
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Bruno Pires
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yes, that's correct.
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Allen OConnor
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Yes. That is how I would interpret the rules.
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Sean Franco
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It's a stack, not a queue.
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Eric O. LEBIGOT
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Thank you guys!

Now I see that this behavior (abilities that trigger because of another triggered ability being put on the stack are "immediately" put on the stack) is consistent with the behavior of abilities that trigger when a spell is cast:
Quote:
601.2h. Once the steps described in 601.2a-g are completed, the spell becomes cast. … If the spell's controller had priority before casting it, he or she gets priority.
followed by the usual stacking of triggered abilities before any player gets priority:
Quote:
603.3. Once an ability has triggered, its controller puts it on the stack as an object that's not a card the next time a player would receive priority.


 
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Eric O. LEBIGOT
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logopolys wrote:
It's a stack, not a queue.
What is your point exactly? What I understand is that the (Magic) stack ("it") is a (computer) stack, which is fortunately true. In these terms, the original question is really about what goes on the stack (not in which order its objects are resolved).
 
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Sean Franco
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lebigot wrote:
logopolys wrote:
It's a stack, not a queue.
What is your point exactly? What I understand is that the (Magic) stack ("it") is a (computer) stack, which is fortunately true.

The distinction that I was drawing is that a queue would look at the order of events and resolve them in that order. A stack resolves them in the opposite order.

lebigot wrote:
In these terms, the original question is really about what goes on the stack (not in which order its objects are resolved).

It looked like the question (correctly) assumed that both effects would go on the stack. I didn't think that was even an issue.
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Eric O. LEBIGOT
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logopolys wrote:
It looked like the question (correctly) assumed that both effects would go on the stack. I didn't think that was even an issue.
I understand: now that I think of it, I can't imagine through which rule mechanism the Ring would first resolve, leaving the stack empty, and then the Servant's triggered ability would be put on the stack. My confusion simply came from the fact that I had probably never encountered a triggered ability that triggered another ability through targeting.
 
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Mark McEvoy
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lebigot wrote:
rule 116.5, which states that triggered abilities that trigger abilities put them on the stack immediately:
Quote:
116.5. Each time a player would get priority, the game first performs all applicable state-based actions… Then triggered abilities are put on the stack (see rule 603, "Handling Triggered Abilities"). These steps repeat in order until no further state-based actions are performed and no abilities trigger. Then the player who would have received priority does so.



To be clear for terminology's sake, nothing happens "immediately" - they go on the stack the next time a player would receive priority (and if there are multiple things awaiting being put on the stack at that time, they go on in APNAP order - first the active player's triggers in his/her choice of order go on the stack, and then the nonactive players' in their choice of order).

"Immediately" would imply that it is placed on the stack even before the current spell/effect completes resolving. Which it doesn't.
 
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Eric O. LEBIGOT
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thatmarkguy wrote:
lebigot wrote:
rule 116.5, which states that triggered abilities that trigger abilities put them on the stack immediately:
Quote:
116.5. Each time a player would get priority, the game first performs all applicable state-based actions… Then triggered abilities are put on the stack (see rule 603, "Handling Triggered Abilities"). These steps repeat in order until no further state-based actions are performed and no abilities trigger. Then the player who would have received priority does so.



To be clear for terminology's sake, nothing happens "immediately" - they go on the stack the next time a player would receive priority (and if there are multiple things awaiting being put on the stack at that time, they go on in APNAP order - first the active player's triggers in his/her choice of order go on the stack, and then the nonactive players' in their choice of order).

"Immediately" would imply that it is placed on the stack even before the current spell/effect completes resolving. Which it doesn't.
Yeah, I was sloppily using "immediately".

That said, what I meant is more precisely that the mechanism that you describe does not apply to the original question, where there is precisely no intervening "next time a player would receive priority" between the stacking of the triggered abilities (hence my sloppy term "immediately"). In fact, the rule that you quote makes it explicit (as far as I understand) that the mechanism is actually that triggered abilities that trigger other abilities result in them being put on the stack before any player gets priority.

There is some room for confusion on this issue (which explains part of the initial question): my initial understanding was that the mechanism for handling successive triggered abilities was:

- A player would get priority, so the current set of triggered abilities go on the stack (what you mention).
- Then we loop on this, because putting these abilities on the stack might trigger new abilities.

But this is incorrect. I thought that this was what the rules said, because "603.3. Once an ability has triggered, its controller puts it on the stack as an object that's not a card the next time a player would receive priority." and "116.3b. The active player receives priority after a spell or ability (other than a mana ability) resolves." I thought this was enough to take care of everything. But rule 116.5 shows that this is actually not the whole story, and that rule 603.3 is simply a partial quote of rule 116.5, which explains that the full mechanism is that all state-based actions and triggered abilities go on the stack "quickly", i.e. in a loop, before a player really gets priority.

This is quite a technical point, though, because in most situations, even if this loop did not exist and rule 116.5 only checked once for state-based actions and triggered abilities before yielding priority to a player, newly triggered abilities would be put on the stack by applying it again. I don't even know of any case where the explicit "fast" loop of rule 116.5 (with no intervening priority given to a player) matters. If anybody wants to share their expertise…
whistle
 
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lebigot wrote:
This is quite a technical point, though, because in most situations, even if this loop did not exist and rule 116.5 only checked once for state-based actions and triggered abilities before yielding priority to a player, newly triggered abilities would be put on the stack by applying it again. I don't even know of any case where the explicit "fast" loop of rule 116.5 (with no intervening priority given to a player) matters. If anybody wants to share their expertise…
whistle


I'm a bit out of touch with this game, so I'm not sure of any triggered abilities that would trigger other abilities before resolving. However, I think I've got an example where state-based effects are affected by rule 116.5:

Two Plague Rats are in play (power and toughness are each equal to the number of Plague Rats in play).
One is a 2/2, but one has Weakness enchanting it (-2/-1), making it a 0/1.
Someone Shocks the 2/2 Plague Rat for 2 damage. When that spell resolves, the Plague Rat dies as a state-based effect.
Then, before anyone gets priority, the 0/1 Plague Rat becomes a -1/0, and also dies as a state-based effect.

There's no opportunity for either player to act in between the two deaths. I'm not sure why they'd want priority in that narrow window, but they can't have it.
 
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Eric O. LEBIGOT
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JosefK wrote:
lebigot wrote:
This is quite a technical point, though, because in most situations, even if this loop did not exist and rule 116.5 only checked once for state-based actions and triggered abilities before yielding priority to a player, newly triggered abilities would be put on the stack by applying it again. I don't even know of any case where the explicit "fast" loop of rule 116.5 (with no intervening priority given to a player) matters. If anybody wants to share their expertise…
whistle


I'm a bit out of touch with this game, so I'm not sure of any triggered abilities that would trigger other abilities before resolving. However, I think I've got an example where state-based effects are affected by rule 116.5:

Two Plague Rats are in play (power and toughness are each equal to the number of Plague Rats in play).
One is a 2/2, but one has Weakness enchanting it (-2/-1), making it a 0/1.
Someone Shocks the 2/2 Plague Rat for 2 damage. When that spell resolves, the Plague Rat dies as a state-based effect.
Then, before anyone gets priority, the 0/1 Plague Rat becomes a -1/0, and also dies as a state-based effect.

There's no opportunity for either player to act in between the two deaths. I'm not sure why they'd want priority in that narrow window, but they can't have it.
I agree with this analysis. The case of a triggered ability triggering another ability is in the original question.

My "call" about expertise sharing was actually referring to an example where having in 116.5 a tight loop "apply state-effects and put triggered abilities on the stack" changes things compared to not having such a loop. The difference is minimal, because without it, rule 116.5 itself would apply again before the player really gets priority: it is just that with the no-tight-loop version, a player would get priority between "bursts" of state-based actions and triggered abilities being put on the stack. I don't know of any card or rule where this would make a difference (like some effect triggering when a player would get priority), but maybe some experts do.
 
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JosefK wrote:
I'm a bit out of touch with this game, so I'm not sure of any triggered abilities that would trigger other abilities before resolving.

There are so many examples, but the easiest would be using the same Illusionary Servant already mentioned. Any triggered ability that targets an Illusionary Servant would also trigger the sacrifice ability.

Though the original question has been answered correctly, I would have answered it this way as I think it is simple and conveys the process most clearly:

1. Oblivion Ring is cast and resolves.
2. Oblivion Ring's enter the battlefield trigger is put on the stack targeting Illusionary Servant.
3. Illusionary Servant's ability triggers as a result of being targeted by Oblivion Ring and is put on the stack on top of the Oblivion Ring trigger.
4. If nothing else is done, they resolve in reverse order: the Servant is sacrificed and then the ORing ability fizzles because its target no longer exists. The ORing is sitting on the battlefield with no linked exiled card.

Certainly any number of things could be done in response to both triggers that could affect the outcome. For example, you could use a blink effect (eg, Cloudshift) to save the Servant from both triggers.
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Sean Franco
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Dormammu wrote:
For example, you could use a blink effect (eg, Cloudshift) to save the Servant from both triggers.

Not true. Targeting it with Cloudshift would put a second sac trigger on the stack. Then Servant would be sac-ed, Cloudshift fizzles, original sac effect fizzles, O-Ring exile effect fizzles. You would have to actually find a way to counter a triggered ability to save Servant.
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logopolys wrote:
Dormammu wrote:
For example, you could use a blink effect (eg, Cloudshift) to save the Servant from both triggers.

Not true. Targeting it with Cloudshift would put a second sac trigger on the stack. Then Servant would be sac-ed, Cloudshift fizzles, original sac effect fizzles, O-Ring exile effect fizzles. You would have to actually find a way to counter a triggered ability to save Servant.
Or something non-targeting, like curfew

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logopolys wrote:
Dormammu wrote:
For example, you could use a blink effect (eg, Cloudshift) to save the Servant from both triggers.

Not true. Targeting it with Cloudshift would put a second sac trigger on the stack. Then Servant would be sac-ed, Cloudshift fizzles, original sac effect fizzles, O-Ring exile effect fizzles. You would have to actually find a way to counter a triggered ability to save Servant.

Duh. Good catch. You could sac it as the cost of an Undercity Informer or Launch Party or similar, however.
 
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