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Descent: Journeys in the Dark (Second Edition) – Labyrinth of Ruin» Forums » Rules

Subject: End of overlords turn issues rss

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What happens when two or more things happen at the "end of overlords turn" that may contradict each other. For example, in the our last quest the overlord received 2 fatigue token at the end of her turn if Serena has not been rescued, and 1 token if she was (the goal being to collect 12). Serena is rescued if all heroes are adjacent to her token at the end of overlords turn.

Would the overlord receive one or two tokens on the turn that fulfills the requirement for rescuing Serena?
 
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Stephen Williams
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Did one of the heroes manage to move adjacent to Serena during the Overlord's "end of turn" phase? I'm having trouble seeing how these two effects could possibly occur at the same time. The condition is a basic true or false check - either all of the heroes are adjacent to Serena, or at least one of them is not adjacent.

A hero can't be adjacent to Serena AND not adjacent to Serena at the same time.

To answer your question, the generally accepted method is that the active player (the OL in this case) decides the order of operation for any effects that happen simultaneously. I think the official FFG answer that's based on was technically only referring to cards being played, but it works just as well for any effects.
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clarence
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This is easy to have this situation in this quest.

For me. Since it is the end of OL turn. OL as the active player.

I choose to receive 2 fatigue since Serena has not been rescued.

Then i trigger the Serena is rescued if all heroes are adjacent to her token at the end of overlords turn.
 
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Alex Martinez
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While I agree with the above "Active Player" rule, I too wonder how you can have a hero be adjacent to Serena and not adjacent to her at the same time. Could you explain how that is possible?
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Palewind
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Stewi wrote:

A hero can't be adjacent to Serena AND not adjacent to Serena at the same time.


I think you have confused people with that line.

Hero Turn:

Heroes all end their turn adjacent to Serena.

OL Turn:

OL goes about his business but all Heroes are still adjacent at the end of his turn.

Serena is considered rescued when the OL turn ends and all heroes are adjacent to her.

However, the OL gets 2 fatigue tokens if she hasn't been rescued at the end of his turn.

The question is what happens first? Does the OL receive his two tokens then Serena is rescued or vice versa?

Like someone has already said, it's usually the current player who decides which happens first.
 
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Darren Nakamura
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These are not two separate events that you check one before the other. You check to see if Serena is rescued (if all heroes are adjacent to her). Overlord gets two if she isn't and one if she is.

You don't go, "Oh, I haven't checked to see if she is rescued yet, therefore I get two tokens," and then check to see if she's rescued, because the check is what triggers getting tokens.
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Alex Martinez
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Yep, that's not a vague rule issue. That's just a very weird way to interpret a rule.

As someone else pointed out, Serena is either rescued OR she isn't. She can't simultaneously be rescued AND captured.

So at the end of the turn, she's either rescued (1 fatigue token for OL) or not (2 fatigue token for OL). There's no timing conflict at all in this particular question. Just someone either willfully or accidentally creating one.
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Sorry for the confusion here. The contradiction is not whether or not she is rescued. The question is, does the overlord get one or two fatigue tokens on the turn Serena is rescued? Obviously, on future turns the overlord would only get one because she would already be rescued, but since she gets rescued at THE END of the overlords turn it just depends what you consider happening first.

The two arguments here are that on the turn Serena is surrounded by heroes and therefore rescued:

1. The overlord gets one token because she has been rescued.
2. Since both checks happen at the end of the overlords turn and he/she is the active player, the overlord decides which happens first, which of course would mean the overlord would get 2 tokens for this turn.
 
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Chris J Davis
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There is no "what happens first". If the heroes are adjacent to Serena, she is rescued, therefore the OL receives 1 fatigue token.
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D P
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The way the OP is interpreting the rules, they're seeing it as two different actions, which is what is flawed in the thinking.

Thinking about it as two separate actions that happen at the end of the OL's turn, in this instance, you could get 3 tokens.

2 tokens for the 'not rescued' action because you chose to do it first.
1 token for the 'rescued' action because you chose to check for the rescue after.

This isn't the way to think about this. As has already been stated, it's a complex action... it's one action that has two outcomes. Not two actions that happen at the same time.

If the heroes are still adjacent at the end of the OL's turn, then she's rescued, 1 token.

If the heroes aren't adjacent at the end of the OL's turn, then she's not rescued, 2 tokens.

There are not 2 actions to deal with, just one that has two different outcomes.

It's "If A then B, otherwise C."
It's not "If A then B. If C then D."
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and I agree with this ruling that the overlord would only get one on the turn she is rescued. This "end of overlords turn" problem has just come up on a few different instances during the last campaign and that was one specific example that I could remember. Another example is the overlord card that allows a monster to perform 2 attacks at the end of the overlords turn and then be destroyed. If this happens before reinforcements then the overlord can kill a monster and then bring it right back. Again, both the card and the reinforcements (at least in some encounters) happen "at the end of the overlords turn".
 
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In the instance of the card you're talking about, the OL could choose to do the card before the reinforcement part and then bring back the same monster that just died as part of the reinforcements.

That's two different actions and the golden rules do kick in for it. The current player gets to choose the order.
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SC Yong
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Personally I agree with the application of the golden rule (since I'm the OL ). However for clarity, I have also sent a rules clarification to FFG.
 
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Wong William
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Although it is not the same case, but I will refer the unoffical FAQ about Dawnblade to my game group that change "Start of Turn" to "End of turn"

Q: In Dawnblade Encounter 1, can the Overlord (draw a card and/or) play Dark Charm before the Ray of Sunlight moves and force a hero off of Arcite's Tomb? Or does the Ray of Sunlight move before ANYTHING else the Overlord can do?

A: Since it's a timing conflict for start of turn overlord effects, he would still draw his card and could play something like Dark Charm to attempt to move the hero away.
 
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Alex Martinez
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That is an entirely different case.

This is pretty black and white. Serena is EITHER rescued OR not rescued. You can't say she is NOT rescued and rescued simultaneously. There is no timing conflict.

None.

It is silly to suggest there is.

Now, if there was a conflict in the timing of actions, then OL would act first. But this has nothing to do with action timing. It is simply an If, Then statement.

No conflict. You can get an official ruling if you like, but it is obvious.

Even if there was an issue, there is no way the OL would get 3 counters at end of turn, somehow getting rewarded more for the heroes completing one of the objectives of the scenario.
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Jason Kratz
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KingCroc wrote:
She can't simultaneously be rescued AND captured.


Well, if she isn't being observed, she COULD be (Or at least her waveform could be in a quasi-rescued/quasi-captured state). Blame quantum mechanics.

But I don't think that is the issue here. I agree with KingCroc, it is one action, not two separate actions.
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Clarification from FFG on the matter:

Me: Hi this problem came up in Gathering Foretold, Encounter 1. There are two "End of Overlord's turn" triggers: the first being the OL getting damage tokens from Serena not being saved, and the second being heroes being all adjacent next to Serena and thus saving her.

The question is: at the end of the overlord's turn, when all heroes are adjacent next to Serena, which trigger goes first? As the OL, I applied the Golden Rule, which is if there is a timing conflict as I as the active player choses which trigger/event/ability to resolve first, thus I get two damage tokens first then she is saved. My players disagree with this ruling.

Could you please clarify what is correct? Should the OL get 1 or 2 tokens on the turn Serena would be saved? Thanks.

Justin: Hey Seng,

This timing conflict is indeed resolved by the golden rule.

Thanks,
Justin Kemppainen
Creative Content Developer
Fantasy Flight Games
jkemppainen@fantasyflightgames.com
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Alex Martinez
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Yeah, that's a silly ruling. Just because it's "Official" doesn't mean I'll play it that way. But, hey, whatever works for you.
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Chris J Davis
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KingCroc wrote:
Yeah, that's a silly ruling. Just because it's "Official" doesn't mean I'll play it that way. But, hey, whatever works for you.


Agreed.
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Darren Nakamura
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I very strongly believe that Justin misunderstood the question here, because it is framed as being a question about timing conflicts, and the Golden Rule deals with timing conflicts. However, there is no actual timing conflict in this specific case. It is one check that happens, not two separate checks that can be resolved one after the other.
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Victor
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After going through this thread and the question several times in my head, I think I finally understand what the OP is asking (though I don't agree with it). It's a very odd interpretation.

I think that the OP is interpreting how the "rescue Serena" condition triggers. Now, I don't have the rulebook in front of me, but if the OP's post is verbatim

Quote:
Serena is rescued if all heroes are adjacent to her token at the end of overlords turn.


Most of us would interpret that ia, "It is the end of the Overlord's turn. Is Serena rescued? Yes/no." Then proceed to distribute one or two tokens.

However, OP's interpretation might be that the "rescued or not" condition does not trigger/get asked until the end of the Overlord's turn and all heroes are adjacent to Serena. Therefore, his line of thinking goes:

"It is now the end of the Overlord's turn. This is the first time all heroes are adjacent to Serena. Do we distribute tokens first or check if Serena is rescued first?"

If this interpretation is indeed the correct one, the golden rule would apply here. While I think the interpretation is incorrect, at least I think I know what the OP is getting at?
 
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Craig Bocketti
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I asked a more detailed question

Craig B wrote:
First I apologize because this question has been asked and answered. Someone just posted your(Justin) answer on BGG. Some of us are curious as to whether perhaps the question was misunderstood. I again apologize for not just accepting the answer on face value, it just doesn't seem like it falls into the timing conflict/golden rule scenario.

The question is about "The gathering foretold" encounter where at the end of the overlord turn he checks to see if all heroes are adjacent to Serena. If Serena is rescued then the OL collects 1 damage token, if not then the OL gets 2 damage tokens.

The answer may have been framed as a timing conflict, but others feel its a simple check.

Are the heroes all adjacent=YES, then Serena is rescued the OL collects 1 damage token. The way it stands now, with the ruling, the OL could say he opts to collect 2 damage tokens, then he could check to see if she is rescued.

It seems the trigger is seeing if she is rescued or not, then from there you collect the correct amount of damage tokens. Is this not the case? Could the OL collect his tokens then verify whether she is rescued or not?



Justin Kemppainen wrote:
Hey Craig,

Oh, no worries. I do understand that sometimes answers have a vague and unsatisfying conclusion. I try to explain reasoning when possible, but sometimes the reasoning isn't as ironclad as I'd like =)

This one is a little tricky, I will admit. While the variable condition (Serena rescued or not) is obviously very important to the game, both still fall under the timing trigger of "end of turn." In some ways, you almost ignore what comes after and resolve the "end of turn" conflict immediately. Additionally, rescued or otherwise isn't really a timing trigger; it's a variable condition that lies within another, broader timing trigger.

Hopefully that helps to clear things up.


 
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Chris J Davis
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Justin Kemppainen wrote:


Hopefully that helps to clear things up.


zombie
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Toba Fett
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Yeah I have to think that Justin misunderstood the question since it was phrased (intentionally or not) to frame (bias) things in terms of 'timing conflict' instead of objectively stating the situation. Reads as: "I had a timing conflict so I used the Golden Rule for timing conflicts. Do you approve?"

Allowing the OL to collect 2 tokens on the turn Serena is rescued seems like a pretty clear case of double dipping. It is equivalent to ruling that the heroes are powerless to prevent the OL from collecting at least 2 tokens even if they were able (hypothetically) to rescue Serena on the first turn. And that powerlessness in itself runs contrary to fun gaming (unless you enjoy iWin buttons.)

I think the easiest way to resolve it is to realise that these quests and abilities are bound to have a few flaws on release, that are later fixed in FAQ and errata. (Aside: calling something an 'errata' is hilarious when it completely rewrites an ability or rule. Just admit you made a mistake the first time and that you're making a balance change.) So save yourself the trouble maybe and add or remove whatever punctuation and sentence structure you need to feel comfortable that Serena's rescue (or lack thereof) is determined before awarding tokens (and not simultaneously which might lead to silly invocation of the Golden Rule.) It is perfectly acceptable to do this since the whole thing is a 'Special Rule' for the quest and the other Golden Rule demands that statements in the Quest Guide supercede the Rules of Play.

TL,DR; Use common sense instead of lawyering.
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The devs must play magic, because this language and interpretation is consistent with that type of thinking.

Think of it as two unrelated statements that come into effect by the same condition. That condition is - at the end of the overlords turn. It doesn't matter what the effects are yet because they both trigger and the timing has to be resolved. The two statements look like this

At end of overlords turn: xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
At end of overlords turn: xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

The active player decides which of these two happens first.

There are two problems with this game.
1. In magic there are tens of thousands of cards that can combine in millions of ways. The language has to be consistent and ironclad in order for it to work because there will be conflicts. The quests in Descent are linear. I understand there are abilities that can combine in odd ways, but they PURPOSEFULLY wrote this timing conflict into the quest for no reason. That's just bad writing.

2. If they are trying to follow the example of magic, they are doing it poorly. They are not consistent in using keywords for every example. The person who started this thread had the correct reasoning because the same reasoning is used elsewhere in descent. Other times it is not, and tries to utilize a common sense approach. It's really frustrating, and its the worst part of this game. It makes me angry how they can be so lazy.
 
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