Recommend
2 
 Thumb up
 Hide
5 Posts

Liar's Dice» Forums » Rules

Subject: Common rule variant: Value of wild/ace conversion bids rss

Your Tags: Add tags
Popular Tags: [View All]
Ender Wiggins
msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
The Perudo rules give a different value for wild/ace conversion bids than the Bluff/Liars Dice rules. For example, under the Perudo rules, a bid of 3 aces/wild can be made after a bid of 6 of anything. Under the Bluff/Liars Dice rules, a bid of 3 aces/wild must be made before a bid of 6 of anything. The order and value given to the different bids under the two rules is as follows:
Bluff: 1 of anything, 1 ace/wild, 2 of anything, 3 of anything, 2 ace/wild, 4 of anything, 5 of anything, etc
Perudo: 1 of anything, 2 of anything, 1 ace/wild, 3 of anything, 4 of anything, 2 ace/wild, 5 of anything, etc

The Perudo rules describe the value of ace conversion bids as follows:
Quote:
Instead of calling a higher quantity or higher number to increase the bid, players may make a bid using aces (ones). When players bid with aces, they halve the quantity called by the previous player.
Players may not start a round by bidding aces.
If the quantity bid does not divide equally, the player who wishes to bid aces must round up.
To increase the bid, the player on the left of the player who bids aces must either bid a higher quantity of aces, or double the quantity of aces bid and add one (if the player wants to bid a number other than aces). or, the player on the left may call "Dudo," in which case players count the quantity of aces (as described in Counting the Dice, above).

The official perudo.org site describes the same rule as follows:
Quote:
If a player wishes they can also make a bid in aces. Ace bids need only reach half the quantity of the previous bid. E.g. A bid of 2 x 2 can be legitimately followed by a bid of 1 x Ace. Where the previous bid quantity is an odd number, the ace bid must be half of the next even quantity. E.g. A bid of 3 x 4 would have to be followed by an ace bid of 2 x Ace. If a player is following an ace-bid and wishes to convert to a higher die face-value, they must call twice the number of aces in the preceeding bid plus one. E.g. A bid following an ace-bid of 3 x Ace, would need to be at least 7 strong, e.g. 7 x 4. There is no restriction on how many times bids may convert to and from ace-bids, but they must meet this rule each time. Players can not bid in aces when they are making the opening bid unless it is a Calzone round.

Ace bid conversion formulae for minimum next bid:
New bid-quantity (where X is the previous bid quantity) = ( X + 1 ) / 2, rounded down
New bid-quantity (where X is the previous ace-bid quantity) = ( X x 2 ) + 1

It sounds complex, but in practice, it just means that the order of bids is different, in terms of where the ace conversion bids are placed. The two boards or bid trackers would look like this:
Quote:
BLUFF
1 of anything
1 ACE/WILD
2 of anything
3 of anything
2 ACE/WILD
4 of anything
5 of anything
etc

PERUDO
1 of anything
2 of anything
1 ACE/WILD
3 of anything
4 of anything
2 ACE/WILD
5 of anything
etc

Note that the boards and bidding charts available here on BGG all follow the Bluff order, not the Perudo order.

Which order is correct? As I have argued from probability and statistics in this thread, I believe that the Bluff bidding order is correct: http://www.bgg.cc/thread/101356

For example, probability-wise, a bid of 4 of anything is less likely to be successful than a bid of 2 aces/wild. So logically, it seems unfair if after someone has made a bid of 4 of anything, that the next player can make an "easier" bid of 2 aces/wild. Thus the Bluff bidding order best fits the order suggested by probability. Each bid on the bid tracker is successively more difficult to obtain.

With the Perudo rules, the ace/wild bids allow a player to make a step down to an "easier" bid. Or could this have strategic value, and give an added twist to the game? I'd be interested to hear from someone who can make a case for why the Perudo rules might be better, by *not* following the order of difficulty suggested by probability. Any thoughts?
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Matthew M
United States
New Haven
Connecticut
flag msg tools
admin
8/8 FREE, PROTECTED
badge
513ers Assemble!
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
As I argue in the other thread (why did you make a new one, exactly?) it is seldom going to be a step down to make the star bid given that the actual information you have will typically favore the number bids. Saying that the raw stats support one ordering is meaningless because it ignores the fact that players will most often have more information about numbers than they will stars.

-MMM
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Isley
United States
Lawrence
Kansas
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
One other benefit of the Perudo rule is that it's easier for newbies to remember without using a chart. "We are at 16 6's?...ok, divide by two...I bid 8 ones!" "We are at 7 4's? divide by two, round up...I bid 4 ones!"
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
United States
L
Georgia
flag msg tools
Quote:
BLUFF
1 of anything
1 ACE/WILD
2 of anything
3 of anything
2 ACE/WILD
4 of anything
5 of anything
etc

I guess the mathematical way of doing this would be:

Ace bid conversion formulae for minimum next bid:
(going down)
New bid-quantity (where X is the previous bid quantity) = (( X / 2 ) rounded down) + 1
(going back up)
New bid-quantity (where X is the previous ace-bid quantity) = X x 2


But explaining it this way would be confusing^

It would be easier to explain going down to aces using two separate formulas for X depending on whether X is even or odd
(see next post)
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
United States
L
Georgia
flag msg tools
The easiest way to describe the preferred ace conversion method (bluff) would be like this:

Scenario:
"4 3's"
"5 3's"
Ace-Bid "3 aces". "I did half of 5 which equals 2.5 and rounded up to 3"

Scenario:
"5 3's"
"6 3's"
Ace-Bid "4 aces". "I did half of 6 which equals 3 and added 1 to get 4"
"You add 1 every-time you halve an even number"

Next time I play liars dice I'll remember this so that we can play with the better rules. And going back up you only have to double the ace quantity. Easy peasy
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Front Page | Welcome | Contact | Privacy Policy | Terms of Service | Advertise | Support BGG | Feeds RSS
Geekdo, BoardGameGeek, the Geekdo logo, and the BoardGameGeek logo are trademarks of BoardGameGeek, LLC.