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Subject: Adapting rules from other titles without purchasing them rss

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Lucas Smith
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hi,
I´ve been thinking about adapting the interesting parts of the rules of some 18xx for the titles I own (18EU), so that I don´t have to purchase them all. The reasons behind this thought are:
- I don´t need multiple sets of tiles, trains, shares
- I don´t care about the region where the game takes place, so simple regional adaptions are uninteresting for me
- I don´t care that much about histicality (?), so it wouldn´t be a problem to play on a USA map with European companies.

The boardgames can be redesigned, for issues like different mountains, lakes, coasts,.....

I would also not be a problem to design some parts new that are only used by special titles (like minors, that could for example also be used as privates ?!?!?!)

Now to my question: Who tried before??? Any tipps?
18xx veterans: Do you have 50 sets of shares, tiles, trains,... at home??Space? Costs?
Thanks
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Blorb Plorbst
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I think we're all bozos on this bus.
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Fascinating idea but tile sets and maps make a great deal of difference between games.
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J C Lawrence
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smithlucas wrote:
18xx veterans: Do you have 50 sets of shares, tiles, trains,... at home??


Yes. I expect to have over 100 discrete 18xx titles fairly soon.
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Eric Brosius
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My favorite 18xx game for six players is two games of 1846 with three players each.
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This is an ambitious undertaking. It may lead to a fine outcome, but will take work. The various rules used for any given title must work together harmoniously, so the development process requires a lot of testing, refining, and swapping out one component of the rule set for one that works better.

It's like taking parts from an Impala, a Camry and a Fiat and trying to make a car out of them. It can work in theory, but it'll be a lot more effort than buying a car already assembled.
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Jim Knight
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18Kit comes to mind.

That seemed to just fade away. Presumably there wasn't any interest in it from the 18xx community.
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Matthew Galer
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I will admit that I am lazy. I would *HATE* to have to sort my tiles before every game, and chances are something would get messed up (too many of 1, not enough of another).

Much easier to open the box and start playing.

so while it is a great idea in theory, I think in practice I would not like it so much (unless someone else is going to do the setup before I arrive on scene).
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Eric Brosius
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My favorite 18xx game for six players is two games of 1846 with three players each.
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mgaler wrote:
I will admit that I am lazy. I would *HATE* to have to sort my tiles before every game, and chances are something would get messed up (too many of 1, not enough of another).

Much easier to open the box and start playing.

As a comparison, Advanced Squad Leader players often keep their counters and maps in big generic collections and pull out what they need for each scenario. So it's not impossible, but I think you need to go all one way or all the other.
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Lucas Smith
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ok, i think maybe I´ll have to do this at a lower level like:
- playing with another stock market (linear/ 2d)
- adding mines (have to fit well)
- adding other "variants"

so I won´t play 1801 for example but I will play 18EU with an 1802 stock market, with the mines out of 1803, the stock rule 4.4.4. out of 1804
[numbers are only examples!!]

This will take MUCH playtesting, I know, but I think the mass of the rules and the theme (railway, stock) allow new interpretings that enrich the game after you have played it many times(actually I don´t even reached this point (; )
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Jon Paul
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smithlucas wrote:
hi,
I´ve been thinking about adapting the interesting parts of the rules of some 18xx for the titles I own (18EU), so that I don´t have to purchase them all. The reasons behind this thought are:
- I don´t need multiple sets of tiles, trains, shares
- I don´t care about the region where the game takes place, so simple regional adaptions are uninteresting for me
- I don´t care that much about histicality (?), so it wouldn´t be a problem to play on a USA map with European companies.

The boardgames can be redesigned, for issues like different mountains, lakes, coasts,.....

I would also not be a problem to design some parts new that are only used by special titles (like minors, that could for example also be used as privates ?!?!?!)

Now to my question: Who tried before??? Any tipps?
18xx veterans: Do you have 50 sets of shares, tiles, trains,... at home??Space? Costs?
Thanks


I think this is an interesting idea, and could work. I don't think it would work that good though and be a bigger pain than it is worth. I personally think you are putting the cart before the horse as you only have the one game so far.
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Bruce Murphy
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smithlucas wrote:
18xx veterans: Do you have 50 sets of shares, tiles, trains,... at home??Space? Costs?
Thanks


Have you glanced at the top of this thread where the 18xx representative image sits?

B>
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Lucas Smith
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yeah (;
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J C Lawrence
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The shelf at behind Tim's leaning head is all 18xx except for the top shelf of clamshell Winsome Games games. The top half of the shelf two to the left of that is also 18xx. If I emptied the crate of 18xx games in the car, I could fill the other half with 18xx as well.

All of this dwarfs in comparison to the 18xx collections of a few people here. eg:



I dearly want a copy of Powerrails as seen there.
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Lucas Smith
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not bad as well J C !
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Andre Viana
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You can combine 2 or 3 games, as they are intending to do with 1844/54, but more than that would be an insane work to separate the sets of tiles.
Good combinations would be games set in the same country or region, for example 18FR/1843/1826. But despite companies almost identical, even the trains are different.
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Alan Winterrowd
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I am more likely to go the opposite direction. I would love to find an old, beat-up copy of 1870 to steal the tiles/tokens/certs so I can have 18?? in its own box, rather than in with 1870.
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Lucas Smith
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good idea, getting (incomplete!!=>cheap!) versions at second hand markets/... and putting them together to one playable version, but of course you still need the game board!!
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Bruce Murphy
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smithlucas wrote:
good idea, getting (incomplete!!=>cheap!) versions at second hand markets/... and putting them together to one playable version, but of course you still need the game board!!


Not in this case. What he's talking about is taking a variant to 1870 which includes its own map and putting it into an eviscerated 1870.

To reply to your whole concept, though. I fundamentally fail to understand why you would want to spend many many hours playing through what would likely be a hilariously badly unbalanced 18xx hybrid of various mechanisms multiple times in order to work out the kinks, only to do it all again.

Why not do something more productive with your time and simply buy the games that the authors and developers have spent all that time balancing in the first place?

B>
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Lucas Smith
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you got something true, but maybe i should explain better what my idea was/is:
I don´t want to create the MEGA-18XX with all stuff that exists, but adapt some single elements from one title to another, so it is actually not more than a variant, for example adding the coal companies element to a title that hasn´t it...

So to the second hand market idea: Let´s say you bought a 1870 game without the game board and some tokens missing, and a 1830 WITH a game board and some tables, certs, ... missing! Now you put both together and maybe add some DIY stuff (tokens/...) and now you have a full game of 1830 (the one with the board!). The disadvantage: you can´t play with the original companies, since you took 1870`s. The advantage: Since you bought only "half, incomplete games" you MAYBE save money! Got that?? I´ve never bought any 18xx at second hand market though ...
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Bruce Murphy
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smithlucas wrote:
you got something true, but maybe i should explain better what my idea was/is:
I don´t want to create the MEGA-18XX with all stuff that exists, but adapt some single elements from one title to another, so it is actually not more than a variant, for example adding the coal companies element to a title that hasn´t it...

A number of people have been trying to hint to you that small changes like this can completely unbalance 18xx games unless you plan to be doing extensive multi-game playtesting.
Quote:

So to the second hand market idea: Let´s say you bought a 1870 game without the game board and some tokens missing, and a 1830 WITH a game board and some tables, certs, ... missing! Now you put both together and maybe add some DIY stuff (tokens/...) and now you have a full game of 1830 (the one with the board!). The disadvantage: you can´t play with the original companies, since you took 1870`s. The advantage: Since you bought only "half, incomplete games" you MAYBE save money! Got that?? I´ve never bought any 18xx at second hand market though ...


I'm unaware of any meaningful second-hand market in partial 18xx games. I'd simply make my own board and companies for whwtever was missing.

B>
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Lucas Smith
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thepackrat wrote:
smithlucas wrote:
you got something true, but maybe i should explain better what my idea was/is:
I don´t want to create the MEGA-18XX with all stuff that exists, but adapt some single elements from one title to another, so it is actually not more than a variant, for example adding the coal companies element to a title that hasn´t it...

A number of people have been trying to hint to you that small changes like this can completely unbalance 18xx games unless you plan to be doing extensive multi-game playtesting.
Quote:

So to the second hand market idea: Let´s say you bought a 1870 game without the game board and some tokens missing, and a 1830 WITH a game board and some tables, certs, ... missing! Now you put both together and maybe add some DIY stuff (tokens/...) and now you have a full game of 1830 (the one with the board!). The disadvantage: you can´t play with the original companies, since you took 1870`s. The advantage: Since you bought only "half, incomplete games" you MAYBE save money! Got that?? I´ve never bought any 18xx at second hand market though ...


I'm unaware of any meaningful second-hand market in partial 18xx games. I'd simply make my own board and companies for whwtever was missing.

B>




1. TRUE!!!
2. good point, also true!
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Andre Viana
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clearclaw wrote:
smithlucas wrote:
18xx veterans: Do you have 50 sets of shares, tiles, trains,... at home??


Yes. I expect to have over 100 discrete 18xx titles fairly soon.


I counted something like 80 titles if you do not count expansions and abandoned prototypes.
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J C Lawrence
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BGG's list is markedly incomplete.
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Jon Paul
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clearclaw wrote:
BGG's list is markedly incomplete.


I am just getting into 18xx and would love to see a much better and more complete 18xx database. Not trying to throw work on you, but seeing as you are very educated on the subject it would be awesome if you and a few other die hards could start to make this happen. Again, merely a request.
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J C Lawrence
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While not current, Blackwater Station has a better and more useful catalogue. I've little interest in maintaining BGG's database.
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Eugene van der Pijll
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clearclaw wrote:
While not current, Blackwater Station has a better and more useful catalogue.

What about that catalogue do you find more useful than BGG?

I can understand the value of the structured information on maps, tiles, trains etc. for the major 18xx's. But when we're talking about the obscure ones, there is not much information there.

The number of games on Blackwater Station is about the same as on BGG (104 versus 107, depending on how you count distinct game systems). There are about 33 games on Blackwater Station that are not on BGG, but almost all of them have long been abandoned, and have little information available. (18Dixie and 18FB are perhaps the only exceptions, as they have some chance of being published.)
On the other hand, many of the games that are only on BGG have been published.

Quote:
I've little interest in maintaining BGG's database.

Some of us do, so any hints to improve the coverage here are appreciated.
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