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Twilight Imperium (Third Edition): Shards of the Throne» Forums » Rules

Subject: Arborec GFs and Transfer Actions rss

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Magic Octopus
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Can Arborec produce units with his GF in a system without a Space Dock during Transfer Actions?

I am under the assumption that a player may normally produce with a Transfer Action even if he does not have a Space Dock in a system (he may build a Dock or mines), but I'm not 100% sure.
 
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Christopher Halbower
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The rules are unnecessarily restrictive. And as such, the Arborec are not allowed to use a GF for production during a Transfer Action unless a Space dock is also present.

 
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I'm under the impression that you can build GF's, as GF's produce GF's for Aborec and you can build SD, so you could build GF's.
 
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Christopher Halbower
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From the base game rules page 12:

Quote:
In addition to this movement, the active
player may also produce units in one of the two systems
if a Space Dock is present in either.


Nothing the FAQ states that the Arborec may ignore the Space Dock constraint. Am I missing something?

 
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I dunno, Halbower. The original rules also specify that a Space Dock must be present for construction in a tactical action, and the FAQ makes no specific allowance for Arborec GF to build during one of those, either. Yet we know they can produce.

The wording for the respective tactical and transfer production steps is similar:

P12: "As the final step of a Tactical Action, the active player may produce new units at one or more friendly Space Docks in the activated system."

P14: "5) Production — The active player may now produce units at his Space Docks in one of the activated systems (but not both)."

Until Shards there was no means to do this other than Space Docks, so that's how the rules were written, but I don't see why a tactical action would allow Arborec GF to produce units but a transfer action wouldn't, given the wording. The constraint seems tailored to prevent production in both systems even if you have Space Docks in both, with the Space Dock requirement noted for consistency with standard production rules.

(Also, a literal reading of the line you quote suggests that if there's a Space Dock in either system, you can produce units in one system or the other, not just the one with the Space Dock in it. The P14 rule is more clear.)
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Christopher Halbower
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You may be right. I wonder why they left out strategy actions like Production primary and secondary. I'm pretty sure this was ruled that the Arborec could NOT use Production to build units with their ground forces. Am I wrong on this?

And for the record, I wasn't saying that the Arborec couldn't build units with ground forces during a transfer action; I was saying that a space dock had to be present in order to build units in that system--then the Arborec could build units with their ground forces during a transfer action.
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Christopher Halbower
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From FAQ page 12:

Quote:
Q: Can Arborec Ground Forces be used with the Production
Strategy Card?
A: Yes. However, the Ground Forces must be in a system
containing one or more friendly Space Docks.


Production SC requires a friendly space dock for Arborec to be allowed to build with ground forces.
 
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halbower wrote:
I was saying that a space dock had to be present in order to build units in that system--then the Arborec could build units with their ground forces during a transfer action.

I know, I'm just not sure that's the case.

halbower wrote:
From FAQ page 12:

Quote:
Q: Can Arborec Ground Forces be used with the Production
Strategy Card?
A: Yes. However, the Ground Forces must be in a system
containing one or more friendly Space Docks.


Production SC requires a friendly space dock for Arborec to be allowed to build with ground forces.

Yes, but that only applies to the Production strategy, not other production instances (the card requires production to be in "one of your systems with a Space Dock," a subtle but crucial difference from producing units "at one or more Space Docks," a rule that's superseded by the Arborec GF ability).

The only restrictions on GF unit production are that they can't build on the same turn they move and can't pool their production. The very next FAQ, about producing while in a fleet, states no requirement for a Space Dock. The Arborec ability breaks the usual rules about needing a Space Dock to build units, except in cases noted, like the Production one.
 
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Christopher Halbower
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What about Imperial secondary? That also requires a space dock. Plus the wording on Production is quite similar to the rules for production.

Has there been a ruling on Imperial Secondary?
 
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No ruling on Imperial related to the Arborec specifically, but given the nearly identical "system with a Space Dock" wording to Production I'd apply it the same way, I think. To me there's a difference in condition between "system with a Space Dock" and "at a Space Dock" (the first requires the system to fulfill its condition, while the second requires only the Space Dock to fulfill it — Space Docks are in a system by default, of course, but the condition is independent of the system in this case, and anyhow it's clear Arborec GF don't always require a Space Dock in their system to produce units). But maybe I'm parsing things too finely?

Reading the rules, though, I can't think of a reason to deny the Arborec GF production during a transfer action that doesn't also do so during a tactical action, since the original production rules for both are the same aside from limiting transfer production to one system.

Maybe a question to submit to FFG?
 
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Christopher Halbower
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Hmmm I never noticed that before: what if two players have a space dock in the same system: can both use Production?
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Ohh, that's an interesting question. I'd say yeah. Immediate battle, as with that AC that lets you build an instant Dreadnought.

Unless "your system" requires you to control the system? But then you couldn't build using Production anywhere that you didn't own all the planets and have at least one ship, so I don't think that's the case.
 
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Can the Arborec use Integrated Economy with their Ground Forces? The tech specifically says when building units at a space dock, you can place the units in an adjacent, activated system. Can the Arborec place units produced from a ground force instead?
 
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Christopher Halbower
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Sarcasmorator wrote:


(the [Production Strategy] card requires production to be in "one of your systems with a Space Dock," a subtle but crucial difference from producing units "at one or more Space Docks," a rule that's superseded by the Arborec GF ability).


From page 15 of Shattered Empire rule book:

Quote:
The Production Strategy Card allows the active player
to produce units at one or more of his or her Space
Docks without activating the system.


Thus, even the rules for Production SC state the production is at a space dock. The FAQ ruling disallowing the Arborec from using ground forces for production without a space dock is inconsistent with the general rule for the Arborec.

 
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Yeah, I'm thinking at this point that unless a FAQ ruling specifically says the Arborec GF can't build in a situation where a Space Dock normally could, they can. Too many "but what if" cases to be workable otherwise.

I'll send in a question.
 
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Sarcasmorator wrote:
Ohh, that's an interesting question. I'd say yeah. Immediate battle, as with that AC that lets you build an instant Dreadnought.

I disagree. Using the secondary of Production is not simultaneous - there is a turn order to it, which in this case is clockwise from the player who activated the ability. If two players have a dock in a particular system, and neither has ships, then the first player to build would be able to build ships, and if he does the next player would not be able to, because he is now under blockade.
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Ah, good point.
 
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Sarcasmorator wrote:

Until Shards there was no means to do this other than Space Docks, so that's how the rules were written, but I don't see why a tactical action would allow Arborec GF to produce units but a transfer action wouldn't, given the wording. The constraint seems tailored to prevent production in both systems even if you have Space Docks in both, with the Space Dock requirement noted for consistency with standard production rules.


I think this is the most compelling argument.

Thanks guys! :)
 
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Asked, and got an answer:

Quote:
The Production strategy card specifically says that it can only be used in a system containing a space dock. All other abilities with this restriction also require a space dock (for example, the secondary of Imperial II).

If a card allows you to produce in any system containing a space dock, you can use space docks and ground forces to produce units. If a card (like Imperial II) specifies that you can produce units at a space dock, you can only produce units using that space dock.

If a card does not specify whether a space dock is required for production, then the arborec can produce using space docks and ground forces.

I hope this answers your question!

- Corey Konieczka

So, it appears there is a distinction between "space dock" and "system with a space dock." I left out the transfer action part by mistake, but sent a follow-up. Even if it's not directly answered, though, I think the above supports it as being allowed.
 
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Christopher Halbower
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Sarcasmorator wrote:
Asked, and got an answer:

Quote:
The Production strategy card specifically says that it can only be used in a system containing a space dock. All other abilities with this restriction also require a space dock (for example, the secondary of Imperial II).

If a card allows you to produce in any system containing a space dock, you can use space docks and ground forces to produce units. If a card (like Imperial II) specifies that you can produce units at a space dock, you can only produce units using that space dock.

If a card does not specify whether a space dock is required for production, then the arborec can produce using space docks and ground forces.

I hope this answers your question!

- Corey Konieczka

So, it appears there is a distinction between "space dock" and "system with a space dock." I left out the transfer action part by mistake, but sent a follow-up. Even if it's not directly answered, though, I think the above supports it as being allowed.


This ruling has the unfortunate effect of nerfing Integrated Economy, a technology that would have some extra benefits to the Arborec if this ruling was more sensible.
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I don't think so, unless I'm misreading your meaning or misunderstanding what you mean by nerfing it. Integrated Economy doesn't require "a system with a Space Dock," like Production or Imperial II, just "producing units at your Space Docks" (which I'd say fulfills "any system containing a Space Dock" in Corey's response). So using GF to build in a system without a Space Dock should be OK.
 
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Christopher Halbower
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I just reread Corey's ruling and now I dislike it even more.

Quote:
If a card (like Imperial II) specifies that you can produce units at a space dock, you can only produce units using that space dock.


This means the Arborec cannot even use the capacity of their ground forces when using Production primary, Imperial II, et al. The production cap for these builds is entirely limited to the Arborec's space dock production.

I sort of see Corey's point of view about Imperial II secondary and Production secondary as it regards to the Arborec's ground force's production ability. But did he really mean to only allow the Arborec to use their ground forces' production capacity in tactical and transfer actions and not in a more general sense?

Also, the Arborec flagship can produce units as well. While Corey wasn't asked about this directly, it would seem that the Arborec are only allowed to use the production capacity of their flagship when they are declaring a tactical action or transfer action--not when using Imperial II or Production SC.
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But the FAQ already stated that GF could produce using Production in a system with a Space Dock, just not independently using that card. The flagship should be able to do the same thing.
 
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Sarcasmorator wrote:
I don't think so, unless I'm misreading your meaning or misunderstanding what you mean by nerfing it. Integrated Economy doesn't require "a system with a Space Dock," like Production or Imperial II, just "producing units at your Space Docks" (which I'd say fulfills "any system containing a Space Dock" in Corey's response). So using GF to build in a system without a Space Dock should be OK.


It's weird that we are having a disagreement about this. Perhaps Corey's ruling is convoluted?

Quote:
If a card (like Imperial II) specifies that you can produce units at a space dock, you can only produce units using that space dock.


The above quote from Corey is the reference I am speaking about. Integrated Economy says, "When you are producing units at your space docks..." It doesn't say, "When you are producing units at one of your systems with a space dock..."

Am I misinterpreting Corey's ruling? soblue
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Christopher Halbower
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Sarcasmorator wrote:
But the FAQ already stated that GF could produce using Production in a system with a Space Dock, just not independently using that card. The flagship should be able to do the same thing.


Ok. I see it now. Thanks. So this goes for Imperial secondary as well, right?
 
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