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Subject: If I bothered to tally games played, this would be a problem rss

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Paul DeStefano
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I find the games played stat interestingly self defeating.

Obviously, it truly only tracks games played by the people who feel they should track their games played. (10 out of 10 surveyed say they participate in surveys).

The real problem is game length v session length.

When I played Doom with my son, one scenario broke out over 4 nights.

Did I play Doom once or four times?

On the other hand, something like Brawl may be played 20 times in an hour.

But did I play more Brawl than Doom? Based on the game given definition of the endgame, I guess so. But in reality, no.

I find Games Played an even more problematic stat than Weight.

Maybe there should be something like "hours played".
 
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Quinn Munnerlyn
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Seems pretty simple to me. A game begins, a game ends. That's 1 game.

You can begin and end 20 of one game in the time it takes to begin and end another.

So you played one game 20 times, and the other once.
 
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Good point. I'm sure everyone logs this differently. Personally, I log each session of multi-day games as 1 play. For example, I listed Paths of Glory three times on my games played, even though it was three separate sessions of the same "game". I'm sure some people will consider that sacrilege, but it seems really unfair to count 20+ hours of Paths of Glory the same as 20 minutes of For Sale.

I log games primarily for my own reference and interest. I'm not too concerned with the overall BGG "games played" totals.
 
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CHAPEL
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Re: If I bothered to tally games played, this would be a pro

I track my ghames played just for my own amusement. I like to see what I've played in a year, and it tells me what oldies I need to pull off the shelf to play. It's really for noone elses purpose my games played. You know how long any certain game take. Most of us know how long any certain game will take around. I know when you play 10 games of Fore Sale, that was about 10-15 minutes each, and when you play Die Macher and nothing else in a session, that's about right. meeple
 
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Chris Talbot
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Re: If I bothered to tally games played, this would be a pro
Lothartvni wrote:
Seems pretty simple to me. A game begins, a game ends. That's 1 game.

This is the way I see it, as well. If a game stretches out over more than one session, I log the game on the last session as one play.

But yes, in terms of hours of play time, the number of plays doesn't give you any idea which games you've spent more time actually playing than others (that doesn't bother me, though). I spent five Thursdays in a row playing Fortress Berlin and logged it as one game. I log my several plays of Tally Ho on BGG, but I can play each game in about six or seven minutes, so there are a lot more plays than there ever will be of Fortress Berlin. I doubt when the year comes to a close, though, I'll have spent 20 hours playing Tally Ho, which is about what it took to play one game of Fortress Berlin.

Chris
 
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Joe Huber

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Geosphere wrote:
I find the games played stat interestingly self defeating.

Obviously, it truly only tracks games played by the people who feel they should track their games played. (10 out of 10 surveyed say they participate in surveys).

The real problem is game length v session length.
...
Maybe there should be something like "hours played".


This is exactly the point I reached some long time ago (7 years?), and was the inspiration for a Happiness metric.

I was putting together my 5 & 10 list for Mark Jackson, and thought about the fact that since I "only" played 2038 three times, it didn't make the list - but For Sale (which I'd spent less than one 2038'ths worth of time playing) did.

So I updated my spreadsheet to calculate time spent playing each game.

Then I realized that the unfairly overrated long games I played once and would never played again, so I multiplied time spent by normalized rating, and got happiness. I still find my happiness rating more useful than times played - though both times played and hours played have some value as well.
 
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Re: If I bothered to tally games played, this would be a pro


Yes, this has been a confusing one for me. I play card games a lot these days and I've wondered if I should log each session or each hand. We usually play 3 or 4 hands based on time rather than total points. I used to log individual games but now I log sessions.

I can see the point about a game traversing several days. But I think users know based on the nature of the game what a session means. If I said I played World in Flames once in a month, gamers probably know I've been playing every day that month.
 
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Paul DeStefano
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Amazing that already in just a few responses, several have taken each side saying that the way they do it is the obvious way to do it.
 
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Obviously, I'm going to have to run the statistics on this before I can give you a concrete answer.
 
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CHAPEL
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Re: If I bothered to tally games played, this would be a pro
Geosphere wrote:
Amazing that already in just a few responses, several have taken each side saying that the way they do it is the obvious way to do it.


Kinda, what was stated is they way "you" do it is the obvious way to do it, for you. The way "I" do it is the obvious way to do it, for me. It's a highly personal thing. There isn't a right or wrong way to track your games.
 
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Re: If I bothered to tally games played, this would be a pro
The metric measures what it measures. How can it be unfair that it doesn't measure what it doesn't measure? Reporting is inconsistent when it occurs at all, so the utility of the metric is rather small anyway. Still, by looking at the aggregate, one can conclude that Geeks play Ticket to Ride a lot. Probably true.
 
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Count Ringworm
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Re: If I bothered to tally games played, this would be a pro
it's also a problem, mentioned before, when it comes to expansions. does playing carcassone with inns&cathedrals count as one game of carcassone, one game of I&C, or one of each?

and to be even more ambiguous, a "Game Played" could be a boolean value, true if you have ever played the game, false if not. then we wouldn't have to nitpick on the definitions.

obviously, this is the best way of doing it.
 
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Re: If I bothered to tally games played, this would be a pro
Everytime this discussion comes up, I have to wonder if we're taking the stats too seriously.

F'rinstance, I find that "Total Plays of This Game" to be pretty useless, since if 3 people play a game of Alhambra, and all log their playing of the game, then the total is 200% higher than it should be. But life goes on, and I don't worry about it.
 
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Paul DeStefano
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Ringworm wrote:
and to be even more ambiguous, a "Game Played" could be a boolean value, true if you have ever played the game, false if not. then we wouldn't have to nitpick on the definitions.


Hold on, that's actually an excellent idea. Whether or not a game has been played AT ALL by a given game group in a month is more useful than number of plays.
 
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Re: If I bothered to tally games played, this would be a pro
Geosphere wrote:


Hold on, that's actually an excellent idea. Whether or not a game has been played AT ALL by a given game group in a month is more useful than number of plays.



That would be an excellent add-on to the geek. A list of game groups and it's members. Then on our BGG ID page, a list of the groups we game with.
 
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Kevin Bender
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Verkisto wrote:
Everytime this discussion comes up, I have to wonder if we're taking the stats too seriously.

F'rinstance, I find that "Total Plays of This Game" to be pretty useless, since if 3 people play a game of Alhambra, and all log their playing of the game, then the total is 200% higher than it should be. But life goes on, and I don't worry about it.


My wife and I run into this problem. We both log our games, but we also often play 2 player games together, or with the same group of people every Thursday night (some of them also log games played here).

Every game my wife and I play together will show up as 2 plays for that game in the stats for 'Games Played'.

However, we still like to track our games played so that we can see what we played the most in a given month, which games we still haven't played from our collection, etc.

The "Games Played" stats have value to us, so we take the time to enter our games played. However, we realize that the value of the data for the whole of the 'geek is not as valuable, although you can still get some useful information out of the data.



 
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Kristian
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Re: If I bothered to tally games played, this would be a pro
Lothartvni wrote:
Seems pretty simple to me. A game begins, a game ends. That's 1 game.

You can begin and end 20 of one game in the time it takes to begin and end another.

So you played one game 20 times, and the other once.


This is how I see it. If someone asks me, "How many times have you played TI3? San Juan?"

I'll answer, "I've played TI3 a handful of times, and San Juan a ton." - Despite the fact that all my San Juan plays could easily fit into one TI3 session.

I would guess that the majority of people on the 'Geek realize that playing Advanced Civilization takes a full day while San Juan takes ~20 minutes a go. If someone needs to make a spreadsheet to normalize things, that's their prerogative, and they can take whatever data they want off the geek and manipulate it as they will - but I think the current format here is fine. I'm sure we don't need a system of arbitrary playing times to normalize games out... I can just see people then starting threads like "..but when I play Doom with my son, it takes four hours, but with my friends it takes 2.5, so do I enter 1 game played with my son and 0.625 plays with my friends, or do I enter 1.6 games played with my son and 1 with my friends?"

(yes, I had to use a calculator for that) cool

So I agree, a game played from start to finish counts as one game.
 
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Re: If I bothered to tally games played, this would be a pro
MWChapel wrote:

I track my ghames played just for my own amusement. I like to see what I've played in a year, and it tells me what oldies I need to pull off the shelf to play. It's really for noone elses purpose my games played.


I agree, there is only a problem if you are considering games played site wide. The data is meaningful when compared internally, per user.

Again with the numbers, if everyone uses their own rating/numbering system, doesn't everything average out with a large data set like the one we have here?
 
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Re: If I bothered to tally games played, this would be a pro
futurescaper wrote:
However, we realize that the value of the data for the whole of the 'geek is not as valuable, although you can still get some useful information out of the data.


I agree. I enter and update my ratings frequently. I just think that when we get down to arguing the validity of personal statistics, then we get far off track of what those satistics are for.
 
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I think this all boils down rather simply.

"Games Played" just a way for users to individually track what they've played, so it doesn't matter how individual members use the tracking..

Trying to extrapolate this information into statistics for individual games for the whole BGG community will always provide skewed results.

So just use the data for yourself and go home happy.
 
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Re: If I bothered to tally games played, this would be a pro
Yup, I just use it for my own personal reference. I wish I had this from 98 and on as there is a lot of games lost to the mists of time that I forget I even played.
 
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MWChapel wrote:
Geosphere wrote:
Hold on, that's actually an excellent idea. Whether or not a game has been played AT ALL by a given game group in a month is more useful than number of plays.

That would be an excellent add-on to the geek. A list of game groups and it's members. Then on our BGG ID page, a list of the groups we game with.

This is already a feature. The number of unique players shows on all the games played lists. So, if all you care about is whether or not a person has played the game (even just once), then look at that column. You can even click on the unique players header and the list will re-sort so that you can tell how many different people have played the game, regardless of game length. The total plays column is pretty useless.

Also, the ass-hours thing is overplayed. Playing a bad long game for 20 hours isn't more telling than playing 5 sessions of a good one-hour game. Unique players is the answer. If you care about game length, multiply the sessions by the average time shown on each game page.
 
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What about the issue of online plays vs. face to face? (digital vs. analog gaming?)

I record every time I play Ticket to Ride Europe on the Days of Wonder website. But I've heard several others who say they never record online plays of any game. Not sure how wargamers feel about this, but I know they play lots of VASSELL and PBEM games.

Just a thought.
 
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Re: If I bothered to tally games played, this would be a pro
Verkisto wrote:

F'rinstance, I find that "Total Plays of This Game" to be pretty useless, since if 3 people play a game of Alhambra, and all log their playing of the game, then the total is 200% higher than it should be. But life goes on, and I don't worry about it.


Why is it 200% higher?(rhetorical question, it doesn't need an answer)
3 People played Alhambra. There was 3 plays of this game.

It seems that this stat can be taken as:
The number of times a certain game box was opened and played.
or
The number of times a person had a gaming experience with a game.


Although, it does neither... or both...
 
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Todd Jarvis
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Re: If I bothered to tally games played, this would be a pro
This is the most serious issue faced when compiling stats--Self selection.
You cannot avoid it and it throws every stat out the window. But we should ignore that since about 99.9999% of statiticians believe that statistics are reliable.
 
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