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Subject: Wargames that aren't really about unit conflict (recommendations needed) rss

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Raven Zachary
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Hi. My favorite games include Diplomacy, Cosmic Encounter, Game of Thrones, Empires in Arms, and War of the Ring.

Those games all have something in common - the war provides the setting for the players to interact, but the units themselves and combat as a whole is just the framework for the interaction of players and the goals and victory conditions of the game.

Are there other games like the ones I mentioned above that you would recommend to me? I straddle this line of interest that's more intense than most gamers are into, but not traditional wargames.

Thanks.

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Jim Cote
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Twilight Struggle
Struggle of Empires
Here I Stand
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Enrico Viglino
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You may find a good number here: Wimpgames

Often, I think these are my favorite types of games,
so don't be put off by the name I've given 'em.
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Wendell
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Si non potes reperire Berolini in tabula, ludens essetis non WIF.
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calandale wrote:
You may find a good number here: Wimpgames

Often, I think these are my favorite types of games,
so don't be put off by the name I've given 'em.


Good games. TERRIBLE name. yuk

A curiosity: in the four-pack of games known as Four Roads to Moscow is a game called "Codeword: Barbarossa". It covers June 1940-June 1941; the Germans have to get their minor allies lined up and move its forces east for the assault on the USSR.
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Enrico Viglino
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wifwendell wrote:
calandale wrote:
You may find a good number here: Wimpgames

Often, I think these are my favorite types of games,
so don't be put off by the name I've given 'em.


Good games. TERRIBLE name. yuk


What I like about it is it expresses that there is some connection
to wargames. And, it's kinda cute, in a way that 'conflict abstractions'
wouldn't be.

Plus, it really gets on some people's nerves.
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Raven Zachary
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calandale wrote:
You may find a good number here: Wimpgames

Often, I think these are my favorite types of games,
so don't be put off by the name I've given 'em.


This is a great list, thanks for putting it together. I enjoy your videos.

Jim - I forgot to list Twilight Struggle, that's a favorite of mine, too. I appreciate the suggestion on Struggle of Empires. I have Here I Stand on my game shelf waiting to be played.

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Subatomic Birdicle
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I think Dune is the "game of games" when it comes to a five or six player interaction game. Played properly, with the constant buying and selling of information - a commodity much more precious than military power - with spice as the medium of exchange, it really is fantastic.

I always budget 7 to 12 hours to play it. Finding a good crew can be hard, but no game is more rewarding IMO.
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Enrico Viglino
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ravenme wrote:
calandale wrote:
You may find a good number here: Wimpgames

Often, I think these are my favorite types of games,
so don't be put off by the name I've given 'em.


This is a great list, thanks for putting it together. I enjoy your videos.





Feel free to add more entries. I've left a lot of even what I have off it.
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Enrico Viglino
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chuft wrote:
I think Dune is the "game of games" when it comes to a five or six player interaction game...

I always budget 7 to 12 hours to play it. Finding a good crew can be hard, but no game is more rewarding IMO.


I've found it's usually over quite a bit quicker than that.

Even ran it at cons in 4-hour slots.
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Subatomic Birdicle
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calandale wrote:
chuft wrote:
I think Dune is the "game of games" when it comes to a five or six player interaction game...

I always budget 7 to 12 hours to play it. Finding a good crew can be hard, but no game is more rewarding IMO.


I've found it's usually over quite a bit quicker than that.

Even ran it at cons in 4-hour slots.


Since it can go fifteen turns, with six players wheeling and dealing every turn, I would be shocked if it ended in four hours unless someone made a terrible mistake and allowed someone else to win in a very early turn (like before Turn 7).

There are two factions that can win auto-wins if the game goes to Turn 15, and they have an extra incentive to try to make sure the game goes the whole distance.
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Enrico Viglino
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chuft wrote:
calandale wrote:
chuft wrote:
I think Dune is the "game of games" when it comes to a five or six player interaction game...

I always budget 7 to 12 hours to play it. Finding a good crew can be hard, but no game is more rewarding IMO.


I've found it's usually over quite a bit quicker than that.

Even ran it at cons in 4-hour slots.


Since it can go fifteen turns, with six players wheeling and dealing every turn, I would be shocked if it ended in four hours unless someone made a terrible mistake and allowed someone else to win in a very early turn (like before Turn 7).

There are two factions that can win auto-wins if the game goes to Turn 15, and they have an extra incentive to try to make sure the game goes the whole distance.


I've seen very few games go beyond 6-10 turns.
At about 20 minutes a turn (anything else is way slow for this game),
we're looking under four hours. But yeah, it's possible that it would
push that hard limit.
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Subatomic Birdicle
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Quote:
anything else is way slow for this game


An hour a turn or so has been my experience in the 25+ games I've completed.

Obviously it can vary by play style. The games I have been in have been very heavy on negotiation, both during bidding, during movement, during alliance negotiations, and during combat.

20 minutes a turn for six people is about 3 minutes per person to do all the phases plus negotiations and selling of information. I can't even conceive of it. Sounds like they are playing it as if it was a Euro, just being quiet and doing their turn. Might as well play something else if you are going to do that. To me Dune is all about the negotiation, bribery, buying and selling of info, treachery, planning and sharing of info with allies, calculation, etc.

Well, I've said enough on this topic. I hope the OP finds a game he enjoys.

FWIW the games of Advanced Civilization I have been in also take about 12 hours.

I always ask before scheduling a game whether each person can stay to the end, so there are no rude surprises for anyone involved.

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Carl Marl
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Divine Right is a multiplayer game with not many military units and diplomacy.
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Enrico Viglino
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chuft wrote:

Obviously it can vary by play style. The games I have been in have been very heavy on negotiation, both during bidding, during movement, during alliance negotiations, and during combat.


No one leaving the table speeds play. There are almost no actions
which require any significant effort - other than the negotiations
from a second worm. Those tend to conclude in a few minutes, and
happen what, maybe every other turn? We'd (as in Dip) set a five
or ten minute limit on such negotiations - which could involve
private discussion. Worked pretty well for us; in much the same
manner as setting limits on Pax Britannica did - a game which
I would suggest setting aside 8 hours for).

Quote:
Sounds like they are playing it as if it was a Euro, just being quiet and doing their turn.


Definitely not. Euros didn't exist when we played it. But, we learned
to push games a little. Get a game of Dune out of the way, and there'd
be time for another good rich game.

Quote:
To me Dune is all about the negotiation, bribery, buying and selling of info, treachery, planning and sharing of info with allies, calculation, etc.


Definitely. But not about wasting time. I'd put it in the same
class as Junta. If you allow negotiations to drag out
too much, nothing more gets accomplished/experienced. It just
takes more time for people to say 'no'.


Quote:
Well, I've said enough on this topic.


Good enough. I shan't expect any response from you.

Quote:
FWIW the games of Advanced Civilization I have been in also take about 12 hours.


Ouch! There, I'm used to a little over the 1 hour/player of Civ -
mainly because of AP issues involved in purchase choices (mainly
my fault). Again though, we'd set strict limits on trading time,
otherwise people just wouldn't quit trying to arrange what was impossible.


Quote:
I always ask before scheduling a game whether each person can stay to the end, so there are no rude surprises for anyone involved.



Damned straight. You can't have someone bail on these.
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Pokey 64
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Small World

Attack!

Caledea: The Epic Strategy Game

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Jeff K
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A really good one that I have been enjoying tremendously lately that seems to fit this bill is Washington's War

EDIT: honorable mention to Virgin Queen
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Kris Moulton
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Maria
Friedrich
1989: Dawn of Freedom
Sekigahara: The Unification of Japan

These are all great Wargames that aren't really about the fighting. They all have various win conditions and are relatively light on rules.
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Nomadic Gamer
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Wallenstein
Serenissima
Joan of Arc
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Obsolete Man
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I think that Labyrinth: The War on Terror, 2001 – ? is fantastic.
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Łukasz
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ravenme wrote:
Are there other games like the ones I mentioned above that you would recommend to me?


Struggle of Empires, The Republic of Rome.
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