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Subject: A question about the use of the Robber. rss

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Emmanouil Parousis
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So, lets say that I roll a 7, and I am about to play the Robber. Is it legal to say "hey, John, give me an x resource, or I will put the Robber in the y hexagon, shutting you down from z resources AND taking a resource from you"? Can I do that?
 
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David Mitchell
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Taking resources are random from their hand.
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Dallas Tucker
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I am pretty sure that the rulebook says that you cannot give another player resources. However, if your playgroup wants to add negotiation and threats to the game, I don't see a problem with that.
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Jason Winter
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no you may not! at my house any way cool
 
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Ben Bateson
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I think this would be a distinctly bad idea if you are not playing with anyone called John.
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Reiner Dr. Düren
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There have to be considered two things:
1) In the dice roll phase, no trade is allowed
2) Resources may not given for free, even not to avoid the robber on a certain field.

But: On Catan, people are allowed to talk to each other at any time. Therefore, even if it is not their trade and build phase, all players are free to make offers for future bargains, and if they see fit, they may also blackmail and threaten other players. However, all this can only be put into action after the consequences of the dice roll are resolved.

Dr. Reiner Düren
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Larry L
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Sounds like extortion to me - you don't work for the government do you?

I think if you were going to do that, you'd have to be sure that other players are truly O.K. with it. As many have said, house rules are always O.K. as long as it works for your group!
 
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Gláucio Reis
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Tilll wrote:
So, lets say that I roll a 7, and I am about to play the Robber. Is it legal to say "hey, John, give me an x resource, or I will put the Robber in the y hexagon, shutting you down from z resources AND taking a resource from you"? Can I do that?

No, you can't.

RedPiranha wrote:
(...) Therefore, even if it is not their trade and build phase, all players are free to make offers for future bargains, and if they see fit, they may also blackmail and threaten other players.

Please tell me where in the rules it says so. We are in metagaming territory here.
 
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Mark L
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GSReis wrote:
RedPiranha wrote:
(...) Therefore, even if it is not their trade and build phase, all players are free to make offers for future bargains, and if they see fit, they may also blackmail and threaten other players.

Please tell me where in the rules it says so. We are in metagaming territory here.

Seriously? You need a rule to tell you you're allowed to talk to each other?
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Reiner Dr. Düren
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GSReis wrote:
Tilll wrote:
So, lets say that I roll a 7, and I am about to play the Robber. Is it legal to say "hey, John, give me an x resource, or I will put the Robber in the y hexagon, shutting you down from z resources AND taking a resource from you"? Can I do that?

No, you can't.

RedPiranha wrote:
(...) Therefore, even if it is not their trade and build phase, all players are free to make offers for future bargains, and if they see fit, they may also blackmail and threaten other players.

Please tell me where in the rules it says so. We are in metagaming territory here.


Here in the FAQ: http://www.catan.com/faq/4645-seven-and-robber-after-rolling...
 
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Gláucio Reis
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xipuloxx wrote:
GSReis wrote:
RedPiranha wrote:
(...) Therefore, even if it is not their trade and build phase, all players are free to make offers for future bargains, and if they see fit, they may also blackmail and threaten other players.

Please tell me where in the rules it says so. We are in metagaming territory here.

Seriously? You need a rule to tell you you're allowed to talk to each other?

No, I need a rule to tell me that deals based on promises are allowed. In fact, I think this is explicitly forbidden (you cannot give a resource on the promise of receiving another resource in the future). Threats and blackmail are metagaming, meaning that they depend on the group and are beyond the scope of this discussion, unless they were explicitly allowed in the rules.

RedPiranha wrote:

First, a FAQ is not the same as the rules, and the question addresses something that is not in the rules at all. Second, it explicitly says "all this can only be put into action after the consequences of the dice roll are resolved", which in practice makes it moot.
 
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Reiner Dr. Düren
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Of course, it isn't allowed to make a deal that player A gives B a resource and B gives A a resource in the next turn. Each trade has to be performed in 1 turn. But it is allowed to say: "I will trade 1 ore against 1 brick, when you don't put the robber on 'my' field." or "If you put the robber on 'my' field, I will play a deserter card against you".

If these indeed will be done, stands on another sheet of paper. None is bound to any promise - but of course has to bear the consequences of a broken promise. At least, none will make a new deal with someone who has broken a promise. Not allowed are promises like "I will wash the dishes, when you don't put the robber on 'my' field" or treating a partner with divorce. So, only game-relevant offers are allowed. And, of course all negotiations have to be done in a voice that all players can hear it and only when all players are at the table.

But that must not be part of the rules, it is self-evident.

Dr. Reiner Düren
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Gláucio Reis
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RedPiranha wrote:
But it is allowed to say: (...) "If you put the robber on 'my' field, I will play a deserter card against you".

This directly contradicts the sentence I quoted from the FAQ.

Quote:
But that must not be part of the rules, it is self-evident.

Let'a just agree to disagree.
 
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Mark L
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GSReis wrote:
RedPiranha wrote:
But it is allowed to say: (...) "If you put the robber on 'my' field, I will play a deserter card against you".

This directly contradicts the sentence I quoted from the FAQ.

It doesn't. I assume that you're referring to the sentence: "However, all this can only be put into action after the consequences of the dice roll are resolved."

I think you're thinking "put into action" in that sentence refers to promises and threats etc being made. But I'm sure it actually refers to the carrying out of those promised/threatened actions. Whatever players may say, none of it can be carried out (i.e. put into action) until after the consequences of the dice roll are resolved.

As I implied above, when I say you shouldn't need a rule for that I'm not talking about actions -- trading, playing cards, moving the robber. I'm talking about talking -- the game's rules do not forbid you from saying anything to the other players at any time (and it would be decidedly weird if they did).
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Reiner Dr. Düren
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xipuloxx wrote:
GSReis wrote:
RedPiranha wrote:
But it is allowed to say: (...) "If you put the robber on 'my' field, I will play a deserter card against you".

This directly contradicts the sentence I quoted from the FAQ.

It doesn't. I assume that you're referring to the sentence: "However, all this can only be put into action after the consequences of the dice roll are resolved."

I think you're thinking "put into action" in that sentence refers to promises and threats etc being made. But I'm sure it actually refers to the carrying out of those promised/threatened actions. Whatever players may say, none of it can be carried out (i.e. put into action) until after the consequences of the dice roll are resolved.

As I implied above, when I say you shouldn't need a rule for that I'm not talking about actions -- trading, playing cards, moving the robber. I'm talking about talking -- the game's rules do not forbid you from saying anything to the other players at any time (and it would be decidedly weird if they did).


Exactly what I've meant.
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Derek Whaley
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You can never give cards away for free. They always have to be a part of an exchange. But I have definitely played a Robber and asked a potential victim if they had a card they are willing to give me. If it is a card I also want, I'd place the Robber in a fairly low odds place, like an 11 or 2 adjacent to their territory and take that card rather than a high odds place and take a random card. This generally works out for both people but doesn't directly undermine the theft of a card. Not sure if it's legal according to the rules, but it also isn't expressly forbid in them.
 
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Gláucio Reis
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xipuloxx wrote:
I'm talking about talking -- the game's rules do not forbid you from saying anything to the other players at any time (and it would be decidedly weird if they did).

A few games actually do and there is nothing weird about it, but that's beyond the point. Of course, most games don't forbid any talk, because that is generally beyond the scope of the rules and falls under the subject of metagaming.

Whaleyland wrote:
But I have definitely played a Robber and asked a potential victim if they had a card they are willing to give me. If it is a card I also want, I'd place the Robber in a fairly low odds place, like an 11 or 2 adjacent to their territory and take that card rather than a high odds place and take a random card. (...) Not sure if it's legal according to the rules, but it also isn't expressly forbid in them.

No, it's not legal. The rules unequivocally state that you steal a random resource when you play the robber.
 
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Derek Whaley
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xipuloxx wrote:
Whaleyland wrote:
But I have definitely played a Robber and asked a potential victim if they had a card they are willing to give me. If it is a card I also want, I'd place the Robber in a fairly low odds place, like an 11 or 2 adjacent to their territory and take that card rather than a high odds place and take a random card. (...) Not sure if it's legal according to the rules, but it also isn't expressly forbid in them.

No, it's not legal. The rules unequivocally state that you steal a random resource when you play the robber.


I'm totally going to get into linguistics here. The English 4th edition rules state exactly:

Quote:
(2) Then you steal 1 (random) Resource Card from an opponent who has a settlement or city adjacent to the target terrain hex. The player who is robbed holds his Resource Card hand face-down. You then take 1 at random.


While some may argue that placing "random" in parentheses implies a clarification, I'm going to argue here that it implies that the card should be random, although there are certain circumstances where it may not be, such as a player offering instead a card to the Robber rather than having one randomly taken. The further instructions regarding how to take a card by random is to clarify for those not understanding what the "random" in parentheses implies. If a player holds out his cards and one specific card is, say, slightly raised above the others according to an agreement, I see nothing wrong with that and, indeed, I have played myriad games where such an occurrence has happened.

That all being said, the FAQ at Catan.com seems to make clear your point:

Quote:
Seven and Robber - May I voluntarily give a card to an opponent, instead of letting him draw it?
No.


Thus the gods at Catan have spoken, despite using slightly sketchy language in their published rules.
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Mark L
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Whaleyland wrote:
xipuloxx wrote:
Whaleyland wrote:
But I have definitely played a Robber and asked a potential victim if they had a card they are willing to give me. If it is a card I also want, I'd place the Robber in a fairly low odds place, like an 11 or 2 adjacent to their territory and take that card rather than a high odds place and take a random card. (...) Not sure if it's legal according to the rules, but it also isn't expressly forbid in them.

No, it's not legal. The rules unequivocally state that you steal a random resource when you play the robber.

For some reason, you've attributed that to me, rather than to GSReis. It wasn't me, yer honour! I wasn't even there, I was in Melbourne on a skiing holiday...
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Reiner Dr. Düren
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To make it clear:
1. A main part of Catan is Trading and the player will win, who can convince the other players that a trade is to their benefit even when he has the best benefit from the trade.
2. Therefore, talking is allowed in all phases, even about future actions.
3. Although a trade is possible only with the active player, all players can make offers.
4. But no player is forced to tell the truth about his cards or his next actions, but has to bear the consequences when he lies.
5. The cards have always to be hold in such a way, that no other player can see the cards.
6. Therefore, when a card can be stolen, the card has to be drawn randomly and the other players don't see which card is stolen.

Dr. Reiner Düren
Catan GmbH
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