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Subject: More Fun with Miniatures - 28 mm list rss

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Dan Becker
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Those of you who would like to replace Command and Colors Ancients blocks with miniature figures might be interested in this. I visited the Foundry site and listed all the beautiful 28 mm figures that would work as Republican Romans and Carthaginians in the Punic War era that Command and Colors Ancients represents. Here are the figure lists I came up with.

I imagine each infantry would be mounted on a 20 mm or 25 mm round or sqaure base. Cavalry on a 20 or 25 mm by 40 or 50 mm rectangle. Elephants and chariots on 50 mm square base. These would fit into an 80 or 100 mm hex (measured point to point).

Note: Column C is the block count. FCode is the Foundy pack code. # is the number of figures in a Foundry pack, Prc is the price per pack (and taking a discount when 3 identical packs are required), P is the number of packs needed and Cost is for the number of packs.

Observations: Elephants, chariots, and cav are expensive. $200 on elephants alone! I have my original spreadsheet with Foundry pictures - this set is awesome looking.

Roman Troops
Abbr C FCode Description # Prc P Cost
LI 24 RR3 Roman Light Inf 8 $14 3 $42
Bw 8 RR7 Roman Skirm 4 $18 1 $18
Ps 4 RR7 Roman Skirm 4 $18 1 $18
Ax 24 RR9 Penal Leg 8 $14 3 $42
Wb 8 RR19 Celtic Warriors 8 $18 1 $18
MI 32 RR3 Legionary Hastati 8 $18 4 $72
HI 16 CR4/5 Veteran Leg 8 $18 2 $36
Art 4 AIR5 Bolt Throwers 2 $18 2 $36
LCav 9 RR13 Celtic Cav 3 $14 3 $42
MCav 18 RR10 Roman Cav 3 $14 6 $84
HCav 3 RR12 Celtic Noble Cav 3 $18 1 $18
HCh 2 CB11 Celtic Chariot 1 $21 2 $42
Ele 4 GPR10 Macedon Eles 2 $36 2 $72
Ldr 3 IR3/5 Cav Command 3 $18 1 $18
159 32 $558

Carthaginian Troops
Abbr C FCode Description # Prc P Cost
LI 16 RR28 Lib.Skirmishers 5 $14 3 $42
Bw 4 RR28 Lib.Skirmishers 3 $18 0 $ 0
Ps 12 RR23 Baleric Slingers 6 $18 2 $36
Ax 20 RR21 Spanish Warriors 6 $14 4 $56
Wb 12 RR22 Spanish Warriors 6 $18 2 $36
MI 12 RR29 Cart Spear 8 $18 2 $36
HI 16 RR30 Cart Pike 8 $18 2 $36
LCav 24 RR27 Cart Light Cav 3 $14 8 $112
MCav 9 RR25 Spanish Cav 3 $14 3 $42
HCav 12 ACA3 Carthage Cav 3 $14 4 $56
HCh 4 CSM11 Canaan Chariot 1 $21 4 $84
Ele 6 ACA4 Carthaginian Ele 2 $36 3 $108
Ldr 3 WG116 Mac. Compan Cav 3 $18 1 $18
150 23 $662



I hope you have fun with the list. While the total price of $1220, not including shipping or tax, might be off-putting, consider that you might have the best looking Command and Colors Ancients game on the planet plus years and years of good looking enjoyment.
 
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chris schott
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have you looked at 1/72 plastic figures?
 
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Dan Becker
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spacerx wrote:
have you looked at 1/72 plastic figures?


Yes I have. There is already a list for 1/72 figures.

I think it would be nice to have lists for all the popular miniature scales: 6 mm, 10 mm, 15 mm, 20 mm, 28 mm. Some have mentioned 2 mm too. I intend to write one for 15 mm soon. With multiple lists people can compare and choose by whatever criteria they like.
 
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Glenn Pruitt
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Wargames Foundry make great miniatures for the most part, but they are by far the most expensive 28mm manufacturer out there. I love their World of the Greeks line, but when it comes to Republican Romans and Carthaginians I'm not so impressed. Some other folks to consider would be:

Old Glory
http://www.oldgloryminiatures.com/

Black Tree Design
http://www.black-tree-design.com/

Gripping Beast
http://www.grippingbeast.com/

There are many others, but in general make sure you really want what you want before paying the price at Foundry. For example, at OG you can get a bag of 30 foot figures for $29.

Personally, I have about 200 painted 25-28mm ancient miniatures covering the Republican Romans, Carthaginian, Gauls, and Greeks. My collection started with Ral Partha historical miniatures, but now includes a lot of Old Glory, and Wargames Foundry (for the Greeks!) plus a few other manufactureres. I also have a lot of American Civil War figs exclusively from Old Glory, and some WWII figures from Black Tree Design. So I know of what I speak.

If you want more info, ping me.

ps - my avatar is an Old Glory mini.
 
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Dan Becker
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Hey Glenn,
Great comments. Thanks for the input. I have some comments too and thought I would append here so others can listen and chime in too.

All lines have their own look. I would suggest to anyone to stick to one manufacturer so the figures match better. (This is true of the other scales also.)

I have lots of Black Tree Design, and I like their look. My impression for Republican Romans and Carthaginians is that they are a little light on the cavalry. So they might be tough to field different looking light, medium, and heavy cav for the game. The Cathaginian infantry might be a little light too.

Old Glory seems to be the least expensive compared to Foundry, BTD, and Gripping Beast. They look good and have a very extensive line for this era too, so I think both armies would look great and lots of variety in OG. Though, like Foundry, the elephants are coming in at $35 a pop. Ouch! Nevertheless, let me try to develop a list for these guys so BGGers can see the price difference.

Gripping Beast has a wide range. A little bit light in the cavalry, but not as bad as BTD. The Carthaginian elephant is in resin, looks great, and costs UKP 10. They also have an elephant casualty that looks great. I like GB, but I wouldn't pick them for this project.

Another thought. The price for this type of miniaturization project does not bother me too much. For me, the use of minis recoup the investment in terms of use and enjoyment. Also it is my impression that when selling well-painted armies, they recoup the lead investment pretty well, maybe not the time spent painting so much. I prefer metals over plastic since they feel heavier, have less repair, and depreciate less over time.

I would enjoy to hear more comments on this.


 
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I posted this already elsewhere, without reply. Someone posted an image of Age of Mythology miniatures compared to the blocks, and it seemed to work fine, specially for chariots and elephants (the pricy thing of "real" minis). AoM minis can be bought at $3 a set from Eagle, has any of you made an estimate of how many sets would be needed? At first guess it would be much cheaper than all the estimates you are giving...


 
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Glenn Pruitt
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beckerdo wrote:
Though, like Foundry, the elephants are coming in at $35 a pop. Ouch!


Do you really think you can fit two 28mm elephants in a single hex? How big is a C&C:A hex? I do know that my Old Glory elephants are each mounted singly on a 2" by 1.5" base.

 
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Dan Becker
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gpruitt wrote:

Do you really think you can fit two 28mm elephants in a single hex? How big is a C&C:A hex? I do know that my Old Glory elephants are each mounted singly on a 2" by 1.5" base.


I suggested 40 mm (1.5") or 50 mm (2") square bases for 28 mm elephants. I suggested 80 mm (3") or 100 (4") mm hexes point to point. So two would just barely fit - maybe a little overlap. I think the GMT board has approximately 2.5" hexes. So no way for 28 mm figures.

I know the Carthaginians had African elephants with big howdahs. Did Romans actually use elephants in the Punic wars? Anyone with references?
 
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Glenn Pruitt
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As far as I know, the Romans never used elephants ever, anywhere. Most historical sources believe that Carthaginian elephants were actually the smaller, now extinct, north-african forest elephant. These elephants would not have been capable of supporting a howdah. The most accurate representation would be an elephant with a mahout (driver) and zero, one or two javelinists riding along behind the mahout. I have some old Ral Partha elephants that are exactly like this. But honestly, I think the howdahs look cool, and that is what I use for my Carthaginians.

Below is a link to a picture of a carthaginian coin.
It shows a Punic god on the left and a war elephant on the right. Notice that it is a single mahout and no howdah.
http://www.barca.fsnet.co.uk/Graphics/coin-hannibal-elephant...
 
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Chris Heinzmann
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6mm

http://www.heritage-studios.com/customorders.html
D.F. Command and Colors custom armies
$213.00
Custom armies for Command and Colors: Ancients Roman and Carthaginian

These are Baccus 6mm which if you haven't seen them you should. The detail is fantastic and 6mm fills up the space better. I love DBA/DBM with 6mm because you can have a 'big' army with lots of guys without the extra space. Yes they are tiny. Yes they are hard to paint. Yes you can only tell the Napoleonic officers apart by looking for the moustaches with a magnifying glass but it's worth it isn't it. It also makes that 3ft rule of minis easier because they are that much smaller.
 
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Steve Burt
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No way will a 28mm elephant fit on a 40mm or 50mm square base.
They won't even fit on a 60mm square base - they need 80mm depth.

My board used for miniatures versions of the C&C games has hexes 120mm wide, so I can use miniatures based for any standard wargame system
 
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Steve Burt
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The Romans used elephants quite a bit, but not against the Carthaginians.
They used them against Macedon, among others.
In fact, the Romans used Elephants for longer, and more often than the Carthaginians.......

Main source would be Diodorus Siculus, I guess
 
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Dan Becker
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steveburt wrote:
No way will a 28mm elephant fit on a 40mm or 50mm square base.
They won't even fit on a 60mm square base - they need 80mm depth.

My board used for miniatures versions of the C&C games has hexes 120mm wide, so I can use miniatures based for any standard wargame system


Glenn says his are on a 2" by 1.5" base (roughly 50 mm by 40 mm).

Still, your 120 mm hexes sound cool. I presume you are using 28 mm. Do you have pictures somewhere?
 
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Glenn Pruitt
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steveburt wrote:
The Romans used elephants quite a bit, but not against the Carthaginians.
They used them against Macedon, among others.
In fact, the Romans used Elephants for longer, and more often than the Carthaginians.......

Main source would be Diodorus Siculus, I guess


My bad, you're right. I guess I should stick to what I know, which is the 2nd Punic War.

But my 28mm elephants do fit on a 2" x 1.5" base.
 
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Sean Swart
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steamrunner wrote:
6mm

http://www.heritage-studios.com/customorders.html
D.F. Command and Colors custom armies
$213.00
Custom armies for Command and Colors: Ancients Roman and Carthaginian

These are Baccus 6mm which if you haven't seen them you should. The detail is fantastic and 6mm fills up the space better. I love DBA/DBM with 6mm because you can have a 'big' army with lots of guys without the extra space. Yes they are tiny. Yes they are hard to paint. Yes you can only tell the Napoleonic officers apart by looking for the moustaches with a magnifying glass but it's worth it isn't it. It also makes that 3ft rule of minis easier because they are that much smaller.


The only thing I will differ with you is the statement "they are harder to paint". 6mm figures are very EASY to paint. You only paint the areas that stand out, not small detail. What happens is when you paint them they look like they are detailed, but it is a illusion.

Read some articles on paint 6mm by baccus and others, in no time you will be painting larger groups in short periods of time.
 
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Dan Becker
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Here's another list for those investigating 28 mm figures for the game. This time I list Old Glory miniatures. This time the Romans and Carthaginian armies come out to $474 and $599 each.

Old Glory certainly has many varied and interesting minis for the Punic wars. There are plenty of choices for the Republic Romans, Africans, and associated allies. OG packages the figures in bags of 30 (foot) or 10 (mounted), so you can safe a bit of money versus other lines with these larger bags. These armies cost about 10 to 20 percent less than Foundry figures.

Once again, note that the elephants alone cost nearly one third of the combined armies! However, I tried to save money by splitting leaders, archers, and slingers between the two armies. I have read the allies and auxilias played for both sides.

Roman Army
Name Num Code Description #P Price # Cost
Light Inf 24 PPR5 Velites 30 $29.00 1 $29.00
Bow Inf 8 CWG28 Cretan Archers 30 $29.00 1 $29.00
Sling Inf 4 CWG27 Balaeric Slingers 30 $29.00 1 $29.00
Auxilia Inf 24 PRR4 Armored Auxilia 30 $29.00 1 $29.00
Warrior Inf 8 CWG6 Gaul Tunic Helmet 30 $29.00 1 $29.00
Medium Inf 32 PPR2 Principes 30 $29.00 1 $29.00
Heavy Inf 16 PPR1 Hastati 30 $29.00 1 $29.00
War Machines 4 CWG32 Ballista w/crew 4 $35.00 1 $35.00
Light Cav 9 PPC15 Celtic Cav 10 $29.00 1 $29.00
Medium Cav 18 PPR8 Roman Medium Cav 10 $29.00 2 $58.00
Heavy Cav 3 PPR6 Roman Heavy Cav 10 $29.00 1 $29.00
Heavy Char 2 CWG29 Briton Chariots 3 $29.00 1 $29.00
Eles 4 PPS05 Selucid Elepant 2 $35.00 2 $70.00
Leaders 3 CWG17 Roman High Cmd 7 $21.00 1 $21.00
159 16 $474.00

Carthaginian Army
Name Num Code Description #P Price # Cost
Light Inf 16 PPC10 Numidian Inf 30 $29.00 1 $29.00
Bow Inf 4 CWG28 Cretan Archers 30 $29.00 0 $0.00
Sling Inf 12 CWG27 Balaeric slingers 30 $29.00 0 $0.00
Auxilia Inf 20 PPC06 Spanish Scutarii 30 $29.00 1 $29.00
Warrior Inf 12 PPC9 Celtiberian 30 $29.00 1 $29.00
Medium Inf 12 PPC04 Libyan Med Inf 30 $29.00 1 $29.00
Heavy Inf 16 PPC05 Libyan Heavy Inf 30 $29.00 1 $29.00
Light Cav 24 CWG26 Numidian Cav 10 $29.00 3 $87.00
Medium Cav 9 PPC02 Citizen Cav 10 $29.00 1 $29.00
Heavy Cav 12 PRR09 Auxilia Heavy Cav 10 $29.00 2 $58.00
Heavy Char 4 PBH1 Hittite Char 3 $35.00 2 $70.00
Eles 6 PPC03 Carthaginian Ele 1 $35.00 6 $210.00
Leaders 3 PRR09 Aux Heavy Cav 10 $29.00 0 $0.00
150 14 $599.00


I hope this is a help to CCA gamers. And I hope some of the manufacturers see the excitement for this game system and come up with more packaged armies and discounts. Next I hope to spec out a few 15 mm sets, especially Corvus Belli or Xyston who have some really fine figures! Have fun.
 
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thanks for the lists. note the romans actually used the same elephants as the carthaginians and not the seleucid elephants which were the indian variety. you could use hastatii and princepes for the medium infantry for the romans and triarii for their heavy infantry. the proportions in the battles are close to the republican legion organization of one triarii to two hastatii and two princepes.
in addition to baccuss for 6mm there are also irregular miniatures, heroics and ros (navwar) and a new range from rapier miniatures (carried by newline designs). irregular and heroics and ros have figures for republican romans and carthaginians. rapier only has a few figures that would be usable at this time. all three of them have figures that would be suitable for the expansion.
 
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Glenn Drover
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I just finished researching all manufacturers of 28mm figures to create Republican Roman and Carthaginain armies. The best manufcaturers that I found were:

Crusader
Foundry
Gripping Beast
A&A Miniatures

I rejected:
Renegade Miniatures (beautiful, but a bit too big...they look like giants)
Magister Militum (They are a bit too small, but could be used in a tight spot)

I tried to pick exactly the right minis for each unit type for the 2nd Punic War. I am basing them on 1" x 1" for infantry and 1" x 2" for Cavalry.

Side Note: I am also creating a tabletop version of the game that will use these figures as well in addition to 4" x 2" bases (4 figures permanently based in the front rank and the 4 individually based figures in the back row. The casualties will be taken from the back row until all 4 are gone. The remaining front rank piece is used as the 'flag' for Victory Point tracking. The table is my 4' x 8' wargaming table and will have a matt with extra large 6" hexes. Cavalry is one permanently mounted figure on the right with the removable figures placed on the base to the left. Elephants are one Elephant with 2 figures in the Howdah (one for each casualty).

Here are my army lists

ROMAN
Light Infantry (Velites) Crusader ANR005 & Foundry ARR06

Bowmen and Slingers Crusader ANS10 & Foundry ARR7

Auxilia (Italian Allies) Gripping Beast REP11, REP12, REP 14; A&A Minis SAM1, SAM7, SAM5

Medium Infantry (Hastati & Principes) Foundry ARR2; Crusader ANR001, ANR002, ANR008

Heavy Infantry (Principes & Triarii) Crusader ANR003, ANR008

Warrior Infantry (Gauls) Foundry ARR19, CB1, CB6; A&A Miniatures also

Lt. Cavalry (Italian Allies) Gripping Beast REPC04, ROC03; A&A Minis SAM6

Medium Cavalry (Roman Cav) Crusader ANR12, ANR13; Foundry ARR10x, ARR11x

Leaders (Roman Generals and officers/ command) Foundry ARR1; Gripping Beast REPC05, VIG09




CARTHAGE
Light Infantry (Numidian Javalin) Foundry CR2, CR6; Crusader ANN001, ANN004

Bowmen Gripping Beast CRT01

Slingers (Baleric) Crusader010; Gripping Beast BAL01

Auxilia (Spanish Allied Infantry Spearmen) Crusader ANS040, ANS050, ANS001, ANS002, ANS005, ANS006, ANS007

Medium Infantry (Spanish Allied Infantry Swordsmen with armor) Crusader ANC002, ANS041, ANS042, ANS051, ANS052

Warriors (Gauls) Foundry CB3, CB4, CB5; A&A Minis various

Lt Cavalry (Numidian Javalin Cavalry) Crusader ANN008, ANN009; Foundry CR2/7, CR2/8; A&A Minis various

Medium Cavlary (Spanish Allied Cavalry) ANS012, ANS011, ANS013, ANS014

Heavy Cavalry (Carthaginain Armored Cavalry) Crusader ANC007, ANC008

Elephant Crusader ANC012; A&A Minis CAR7

Leader (Generals/ Command) Crusader ANC011, ANS014 A&A Minis CAR08


 
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Graham Ward
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Want to jump in and say thanks for this list. Was exactly what I was looking for. In the year or so since I've been (procrastinating) working on a 28mm conversion for CC:A, Victrix Limited has come out with some surprisingly excellent plastic miniature lines for Republican Rome and others.

https://www.victrixlimited.com/collections/roman-ancients

I'm curious if anyone has thought about trying them as models for CC:A. I picked up a few sets (Rome's Legions of the Republic in pectoral armor and chainmail) and am starting to assemble them with an eye for eventually amassing enough to field a full game of CC:A in 28mm.
 
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