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Subject: More abuse of intelligence gathering and drug wars rss

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This is the natural result of allowing what would otherwise be criminal intrusions into the privacy of individuals without suspicion and the need to distance "the investigation" from the unconstitutional acts.

Very ugly indeed and all the more reason that using "big data" in ways which would be unconstitutional if it were known what you're doing needs a lot more regulation and public scrutiny before we turn into a nation of CCTV monitored lab mice like the British.
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This isn't really new or anything. The same thing goes on trying to prove a case while excluding certain evidence - that evidence informs the investigation but isn't allowed to be used for probable cause or as proof later, unless the investigation somehow comes to a point where that evidence would be admissible again.

Here we have people collecting information and using that to target certain people, but not relying upon that information for probable cause. It informs their investigation but the investigation is not reliant on that data - except that it is.
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Boaty McBoatface
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Whilst it may be unconstitutional it is does catching drug dealers, so would it be better if those drug pushers were free? Is some adherence (to a rather lose definition) to a constitutional amendment really worth drugs on the streets and criminals laughing at the law (it would seem yes in some eyes)?
 
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slatersteven wrote:
Whilst it may be unconstitutional it is does catching drug dealers, so would it be better if those drug pushers were free? Is some adherence (to a rather lose definition) to a constitutional amendment really worth drugs on the streets and criminals laughing at the law (it would seem yes in some eyes)?


The problem is that this is perilously close to having the police show up at your house everyday to search it for any wrongdoing and you not being able to refuse. By doing so they would catch more drug dealers, so isn't it worth it?

I have the same problem (but to a far lesser degree) with DUI checkpoints. I don't drink and drive, but my freedom of movement is impeded by the police checking my guilt without any probably cause. I realize that it does catch drunks and, in this particular case, is a minor inconvenience when I do happen to come across one (not often), so I don't get up in arms about it.
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TheChin! wrote:
slatersteven wrote:
Whilst it may be unconstitutional it is does catching drug dealers, so would it be better if those drug pushers were free? Is some adherence (to a rather lose definition) to a constitutional amendment really worth drugs on the streets and criminals laughing at the law (it would seem yes in some eyes)?


The problem is that this is perilously close to having the police show up at your house everyday to search it for any wrongdoing and you not being able to refuse. By doing so they would catch more drug dealers, so isn't it worth it?

I have the same problem (but to a far lesser degree) with DUI checkpoints. I don't drink and drive, but my freedom of movement is impeded by the police checking my guilt without any probably cause. I realize that it does catch drunks and, in this particular case, is a minor inconvenience when I do happen to come across one (not often), so I don't get up in arms about it.
It's no where near that, it is near "you regularly have contact with a suspected criminal so they decide to investigate you".
 
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bjlillo wrote:
slatersteven wrote:
Whilst it may be unconstitutional it is does catching drug dealers, so would it be better if those drug pushers were free? Is some adherence (to a rather lose definition) to a constitutional amendment really worth drugs on the streets and criminals laughing at the law (it would seem yes in some eyes)?


Yes, our Constitutional rights are worth having drug dealers on the streets.
"The price of freedom is rampant crime".
 
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slatersteven wrote:
"The price of freedom is rampant crime".


The alternative is we all are in "prison", with the actual wrongdoers occasionally sent to "higher security" portions of it.

In any case, the Constitution is an attempt to protect people from wrongdoers while also protecting their freedom. Does that mean it's more difficult to track down and incarcerate wrongdoers? To an extent, yes. Our burgeoning prison population would have us think it's not nearly as difficult as would make it necessary to reduce our safeguards.

If the evidence provided from other agencies is legit, then it should be able to be analyzed in court. If I call the cops and say I saw my neighbor dealing drugs in the street, I should have to testify in court. The cops can't just use that info to manufacture a "routine traffic stop" and find drugs to convict my neighbor and I never am part of the process. That is an abuse. The "Traffic Stop" process is already rife with abuse as it doesn't require warrants per se. There are rules, but they are so subjective and give the officer involved so much leeway they are virtually unregulated.
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TheChin! wrote:
slatersteven wrote:
"The price of freedom is rampant crime".


The alternative is we all are in "prison", with the actual wrongdoers occasionally sent to "higher security" portions of it.

In any case, the Constitution is an attempt to protect people from wrongdoers while also protecting their freedom. Does that mean it's more difficult to track down and incarcerate wrongdoers? To an extent, yes. Our burgeoning prison population would have us think it's not nearly as difficult as would make it necessary to reduce our safeguards.

If the evidence provided from other agencies is legit, then it should be able to be analyzed in court. If I call the cops and say I saw my neighbor dealing drugs in the street, I should have to testify in court. The cops can't just use that info to manufacture a "routine traffic stop" and find drugs to convict my neighbor and I never am part of the process. That is an abuse. The "Traffic Stop" process is already rife with abuse as it doesn't require warrants per se. There are rules, but they are so subjective and give the officer involved so much leeway they are virtually unregulated.
Yet the fourth amendment says that they have a right to secure their property from unreasonable searches, not from any searches. As there are reasonable grounds (due to their activity with regards to to other monitored individuals) it's hard to see how this is a violation of the fourth, let alone the idea that this leads to us all being imprisoned.
 
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slatersteven wrote:
Yet the fourth amendment says that they have a right to secure their property from unreasonable searches, not from any searches. As there are reasonable grounds (due to their activity with regards to to other monitored individuals) it's hard to see how this is a violation of the fourth, let alone the idea that this leads to us all being imprisoned.


On the surface that sounds reasonable, except that if these were reasonable sources of evidence for searches/warrants they wouldn't have to work backwards to find evidence to use instead of this. This evidence would be sufficient. That alone makes it seem like it isn't as reasonable as they would have us believe, which is the whole point of being able to see all evidence gathered against you when you are defending yourself in court.

Since I am innocent, why should I be pulled over and my vehicle searched because one of my relatives is selling drugs and we talk on the phone about our fantasy football league? It could make me late for work, late to pick up my kid, miss a doctors appointment, all kinds of other negative impacts all because "guilt by association" is good enough evidence?
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TheChin! wrote:
slatersteven wrote:
Whilst it may be unconstitutional it is does catching drug dealers, so would it be better if those drug pushers were free? Is some adherence (to a rather lose definition) to a constitutional amendment really worth drugs on the streets and criminals laughing at the law (it would seem yes in some eyes)?


The problem is that this is perilously close to having the police show up at your house everyday to search it for any wrongdoing and you not being able to refuse. By doing so they would catch more drug dealers, so isn't it worth it?

I have the same problem (but to a far lesser degree) with DUI checkpoints. I don't drink and drive, but my freedom of movement is impeded by the police checking my guilt without any probably cause. I realize that it does catch drunks and, in this particular case, is a minor inconvenience when I do happen to come across one (not often), so I don't get up in arms about it.


It's pretty clear to me from the Youtube DUI stop videos that it's unconstitutional and the police doing it mostly know it's unconstitutional. I'm very uncomfortable watching those videos but the police get flustered and back down when confronted correctly.

This article by BJ is pretty scary. The cases are fundamentally unconstitutional and at odds with judicial traditions going back before the united states was founded.
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bjlillo wrote:

This seems like a pretty clear violation of the Fourth Amendment to me. Lying about the "probable cause" portion of the investigation is pretty shady.


And here is the irony. The drug war really ramped up under Reagan. Organizations like the ACLU have been challenging these rights infringements forever and they are constantly being villified by GOP talking heads. Remember George H. W. Bushes venom filled accusation that Bill Clinton was a card carrying member? Even worse, today's prisons are often run by private corporations that are lobbying state by state for more stringent laws and minimum sentances.

I know you have a real thing for Obama but, this administration is hardly a pioneer in shaving the margins of our Bill of Rights. Maybe some of those awful liberals have something useful to contribute after all.
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When I was younger, I accepted without question that the drug war was a good idea. "Drugs are bad." I don't want dangerous drugs anywhere near me or someone close to me. Still, it doesn't work and just fuels a corrupt prison system.
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whac3 wrote:
When I was younger, I accepted without question that the drug war was a good idea. "Drugs are bad." I don't want dangerous drugs anywhere near me or someone close to me. Still, it doesn't work and just fuels a corrupt prison system.
If you are saying that prohibition does not work I would agree. The problem is if we are going to have i we should at least try and make it work.
 
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slatersteven wrote:
whac3 wrote:
When I was younger, I accepted without question that the drug war was a good idea. "Drugs are bad." I don't want dangerous drugs anywhere near me or someone close to me. Still, it doesn't work and just fuels a corrupt prison system.
If you are saying that prohibition does not work I would agree. The problem is if we are going to have i we should at least try and make it work.

Why?
 
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whac3 wrote:
slatersteven wrote:
whac3 wrote:
When I was younger, I accepted without question that the drug war was a good idea. "Drugs are bad." I don't want dangerous drugs anywhere near me or someone close to me. Still, it doesn't work and just fuels a corrupt prison system.
If you are saying that prohibition does not work I would agree. The problem is if we are going to have i we should at least try and make it work.

Why?
Because why waste money on something that does not work as well as it can? There is also (in my mind, I do have one) always the sneaking suspicion that these kinds of laws are aimed only at one class, or at allowing your mates to make a mint.
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slatersteven wrote:
whac3 wrote:
slatersteven wrote:
whac3 wrote:
When I was younger, I accepted without question that the drug war was a good idea. "Drugs are bad." I don't want dangerous drugs anywhere near me or someone close to me. Still, it doesn't work and just fuels a corrupt prison system.
If you are saying that prohibition does not work I would agree. The problem is if we are going to have i we should at least try and make it work.

Why?
Because why waste money on something that does not work as well as it can? There is also (in my mind, I do have one) always the sneaking suspicion that these kinds of laws are aimed only at one class, or at allowing your mates to make a mint.

What? How does not arresting people, not patrolling for nor destroying drug crops, etc., waste money?
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whac3 wrote:
slatersteven wrote:
whac3 wrote:
slatersteven wrote:
whac3 wrote:
When I was younger, I accepted without question that the drug war was a good idea. "Drugs are bad." I don't want dangerous drugs anywhere near me or someone close to me. Still, it doesn't work and just fuels a corrupt prison system.
If you are saying that prohibition does not work I would agree. The problem is if we are going to have i we should at least try and make it work.

Why?
Because why waste money on something that does not work as well as it can? There is also (in my mind, I do have one) always the sneaking suspicion that these kinds of laws are aimed only at one class, or at allowing your mates to make a mint.

What? How does not arresting people, not patrolling for nor destroying drug crops, etc., waste money?
I said I think it would be better if we did not do it. I think the war on drugs is a massive waste of money and resources, but if we are going to have one lets at least try and make it work. What we have (in a sense) is the worst of both worlds, we have a hugely expensive war on drugs, but under resource (with the resources it actually needs) it and tie the hands of the enforcement agencies.
 
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The drug war would be solved if they stopped interfering and let free market forces take over.

There will always be demand.
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The 'war on drugs' includes things like DARE which worked to keep me off drugs, so I'm glad they have programs like that.
 
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Of course health education should cover intoxicants, but it shouldn't be performed by an enforcement organization.

"Difficult stuff" should be done by specialized professional educators.
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Jythier wrote:
The 'war on drugs' includes things like DARE which worked to keep me off drugs, so I'm glad they have programs like that.
If the DARE program was enough to keep you off drugs, you probably would have never tried drugs anyhow. Don't get me started on the long-standing farce that is the DARE program.





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fightcitymayor wrote:
Jythier wrote:
The 'war on drugs' includes things like DARE which worked to keep me off drugs, so I'm glad they have programs like that.
If the DARE program was enough to keep you off drugs, you probably would have never tried drugs anyhow. Don't get me started on the long-standing farce that is the DARE program.


No, I probably wouldn't have tried drugs anyhow. But at least I knew how to resist the peer pressure I never received.
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Fwing wrote:
The drug war would be solved if they stopped interfering and let free market forces take over.

There will always be demand.


It's a cyclic "no win" situation.

When you try to stop drugs, it's impossible and crime and corruption grows.

When you don't try to stop drugs at all, then drug use can grow to destructive levels (laudanum, opium being historical examples in the U.S. and overseas).

Education and imprisoning for actual crimes (theft) seems to be the best path. And of course you have to have a decent society- if everyone is miserable, drugs are going to be more appealing.
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Jythier wrote:
fightcitymayor wrote:
Jythier wrote:
The 'war on drugs' includes things like DARE which worked to keep me off drugs, so I'm glad they have programs like that.
If the DARE program was enough to keep you off drugs, you probably would have never tried drugs anyhow. Don't get me started on the long-standing farce that is the DARE program.


No, I probably wouldn't have tried drugs anyhow. But at least I knew how to resist the peer pressure I never received.



You should really try drugs. They are fun and not dangerous at all.
Plus drug use is cool!

Do it! Do it! Do it now! You want drugs!
 
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maxo-texas wrote:
Jythier wrote:
fightcitymayor wrote:
Jythier wrote:
The 'war on drugs' includes things like DARE which worked to keep me off drugs, so I'm glad they have programs like that.
If the DARE program was enough to keep you off drugs, you probably would have never tried drugs anyhow. Don't get me started on the long-standing farce that is the DARE program.


No, I probably wouldn't have tried drugs anyhow. But at least I knew how to resist the peer pressure I never received.



You should really try drugs. They are fun and not dangerous at all.
Plus drug use is cool!

Do it! Do it! Do it now! You want drugs!


Well, if you and Charlie say so...
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