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Subject: Hey, it was only $15, or, quick thoughts after first play rss

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navajas
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Just finished our first play with the Kickstarter edition we got in the mail this afternoon. Here's what the boys, eight and five, thought:

Me: "Hey guys, so, what did you think of that game?"
Five: "I think it's really fun."
Eight: "It's pretty cool, but I'd totally redo the potions."
Five: "Yeah, they're way too cheesy."
Eight: "Yeah, plus it makes no sense. 'Here drink this, pow, you're a champion!'"
Five: "That's what I said brother, cheesy!"
Eight: "And I mean, why have so many other things on the dice? Every thing ends up a champion in like three floors anyway. Kind of weird."
Five: "But it's really fun Dad!"
Me: "Want to play again?"
Five: "No."
Eight: "Not right now, Dad. Maybe later."

Bear in mind these boys are very advanced game players who play things like Agricola, Thunderstone, Runeage, Stoneage and so forth with regularity, so attention span is not an issue if something holds their interest. After one play I'm no where near a position to write a review, but I'm pessimistic. The potion thing above is a valid critique so far, and each and every result being equally possible seems to make this game flat. I wonder if it could have been much better with some other distribution of probability if five and eight year old boys are noticing a mundane triviality of result after one play.

I wonder if D8s were ever considered?
 
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Matt Sharwarko
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Making all your dice champions makes killing a dragon very difficult since you need 3 different types of party dice to do so. Also potions are better when one party die quaffs 2+ and brings back multiple dice from the graveyard.
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Seth Jaffee
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navajas wrote:
Just finished our first play with the Kickstarter edition we got in the mail this afternoon. Here's what the boys, eight and five, thought:

Me: "Hey guys, so, what did you think of that game?"
Five: "I think it's really fun."
Eight: "It's pretty cool, but I'd totally redo the potions."
Five: "Yeah, they're way too cheesy."
Eight: "Yeah, plus it makes no sense. 'Here drink this, pow, you're a champion!'"
Five: "That's what I said brother, cheesy!"
Eight: "And I mean, why have so many other things on the dice? Every thing ends up a champion in like three floors anyway. Kind of weird."
Five: "But it's really fun Dad!"
Me: "Want to play again?"
Five: "No."
Eight: "Not right now, Dad. Maybe later."

Bear in mind these boys are very advanced game players who play things like Agricola, Thunderstone, Runeage, Stoneage and so forth with regularity, so attention span is not an issue if something holds their interest. After one play I'm no where near a position to write a review, but I'm pessimistic. The potion thing above is a valid critique so far, and each and every result being equally possible seems to make this game flat. I wonder if it could have been much better with some other distribution of probability if five and eight year old boys are noticing a mundane triviality of result after one play.

I wonder if D8s were ever considered?

I'm sorry to hear the game fell flat for your kids.

It's true, the effect of a single potion is to basically upgrade 1 Party die to whatever you want, often a Champion. However, there are a couple of things about that:

* To defeat a dragon, you need 3 DIFFERENT companions, so turning all of your Party dice into Champions can backfire if/when the dragon shows up.

* You're not required to quaff the potions, but if you roll one then that's instead of a Monster, so that's already a good roll.

* If all of your party dice are turning into Champions (via Potions) in the first few levels, then you must be rolling a lot of Potions! In which case you're likely to get a pretty good score. I mean, imagine you rolled nothing BUT Potions - you'd easily top out the dungeon!

* As for being thematic that you turn into a Champion - well, I guess an eight year old probably hasn't spent much time playing Dungeons and Dragons, and drinking potions of Heroism

I'm not sure I know what you mean about the distribution. Each Dungeon Die has the same distribution, yes, but once you've rolled your party its composition is set, and you're not equally equipped to deal with any dungeon roll. Also, each Hero's abilities come into play in at different times and in different ways.

Anyway, I'm sorry it didn't go over well. If they give it another chance then hopefully they'll like it better
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navajas
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Missed the fact that three champions can't kill a dragon (were basically considering them wild). That's a big deal as I think each and every dragon we killed were done in by at least two, usually three champions.

EDIT: Oh, and no, we are a D&D free household. For this reason the mimic (immediately dubbed "weird and moldy") version of the treasure box was a big disappointment.

EDIT 2: However, I didn't say the game feel flat for the boys, they both claim to like it. I was surprised the novelty didn't engender an immediate replay, but we'll see. The dragon thing will add a lot more to think about.
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Rick Teverbaugh
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I think potions will be undervalued until played more. The situational value of them can be great. I believe this is a game that will be for people who love puzzles that change every dice roll.
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navajas
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rickert wrote:
I think potions will be undervalued until played more. The situational value of them can be great. I believe this is a game that will be for people who love puzzles that change every dice roll.


Their point wasn't that they were undervalued, but that they were powerful beyond question. That was mostly due to the non-decision point of champions however, so the above is all but moot until a replay.
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Seth Jaffee
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I find that Scrolls are often undervalued... it'll depend on the player's style and it can be more swingy, but Scrolls are potentially very powerful.
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Matt Sharwarko
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sedjtroll wrote:
I find that Scrolls are often undervalued... it'll depend on the player's style and it can be more swingy, but Scrolls are potentially very powerful.


Especially since I have the tendency to roll one of every monster type once I get to level 4 or 5. (Solo games only yet)
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Greg
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To each their own. I've enjoyed it so far as a fun light push your luck game.
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Jeff Pratt
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Just admit it already, Small World is not a fantasy wargame...it's a Mancala variant!
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Our first play tonight went really well. There was enough decision making and puzzle solving to keep everyone interested and the game ended just when it was about to wear out its welcome, in other words, it played out perfectly.

There was some ambiguities that popped up, like whether or not you can drink a potion with a scroll treasure token, since you can drink a potion with a scroll die, but I'm sure those questions will be straightened out pretty quickly here on the geek.

It's not nearly as one dimensional as it looks at first blush. The character powers and treasures really change things up and allow some pretty cool combos. We were all pretty thrilled with it...
 
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Seth Jaffee
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vladdswrath wrote:
Our first play tonight went really well. There was enough decision making and puzzle solving to keep everyone interested and the game ended just when it was about to wear out its welcome, in other words, it played out perfectly.

There was some ambiguities that popped up, like whether or not you can drink a potion with a scroll treasure token, since you can drink a potion with a scroll die, but I'm sure those questions will be straightened out pretty quickly here on the geek.

It's not nearly as one dimensional as it looks at first blush. The character powers and treasures really change things up and allow some pretty cool combos. We were all pretty thrilled with it...

A Scroll treasure is not a Party die. It is a treasure that gives you the ability to re-roll any number of party and dungeon dice (this happens to be the same effect that a Scroll face on a party die gives you).

To quaff a Potion, the cost is 1 party die.

On the other hand, a Vorpal Sword's effect is "use as a Fighter" - so that effectively gives you a virtual party die, which you could use to quaff potions.


My bad, the actual answer is that the scroll treasure is used as a scroll die face, therefore you could use it to quaff potions.

I was thinking of something else... sorry about the confusion.
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Anders Pedersen
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sedjtroll wrote:
vladdswrath wrote:
Our first play tonight went really well. There was enough decision making and puzzle solving to keep everyone interested and the game ended just when it was about to wear out its welcome, in other words, it played out perfectly.

There was some ambiguities that popped up, like whether or not you can drink a potion with a scroll treasure token, since you can drink a potion with a scroll die, but I'm sure those questions will be straightened out pretty quickly here on the geek.

It's not nearly as one dimensional as it looks at first blush. The character powers and treasures really change things up and allow some pretty cool combos. We were all pretty thrilled with it...

A Scroll treasure is not a Party die. It is a treasure that gives you the ability to re-roll any number of party and dungeon dice (this happens to be the same effect that a Scroll face on a party die gives you).

To quaff a Potion, the cost is 1 party die.

On the other hand, a Vorpal Sword's effect is "use as a Fighter" - so that effectively gives you a virtual party die, which you could use to quaff potions.

The wording for Fighters and Scrolls are the same:
Use as one "xxx" die face
It doesn't make sense if the Scroll cannot be used to quaff potions.
 
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Seth Jaffee
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dbc- wrote:
sedjtroll wrote:
vladdswrath wrote:
Our first play tonight went really well. There was enough decision making and puzzle solving to keep everyone interested and the game ended just when it was about to wear out its welcome, in other words, it played out perfectly.

There was some ambiguities that popped up, like whether or not you can drink a potion with a scroll treasure token, since you can drink a potion with a scroll die, but I'm sure those questions will be straightened out pretty quickly here on the geek.

It's not nearly as one dimensional as it looks at first blush. The character powers and treasures really change things up and allow some pretty cool combos. We were all pretty thrilled with it...

A Scroll treasure is not a Party die. It is a treasure that gives you the ability to re-roll any number of party and dungeon dice (this happens to be the same effect that a Scroll face on a party die gives you).

To quaff a Potion, the cost is 1 party die.

On the other hand, a Vorpal Sword's effect is "use as a Fighter" - so that effectively gives you a virtual party die, which you could use to quaff potions.

The wording for Fighters and Scrolls are the same:
Use as one "xxx" die face
It doesn't make sense if the Scroll cannot be used to quaff potions.

Sorry, my mistake. At one point it was going to be worded differently, but in the end we decided the treasures should all just be die faces...

So yes, you can use a scroll treasure to quaff potions.

I'll edit my post above.
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