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Lord of the Rings: The Confrontation» Forums » Rules

Subject: Attacking sideway in the river? rss

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Alex

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It is stated clearly in the rules that characters can never retreat sideway against the flow of the river Anduin.

The question is: can you attack sideway against the flow of the river (ex: from Rohan to Fangorn)?

Obviously this is only possible with Classic Aragorn and the Classic Witch King.
 
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jellospike wrote:
It is stated clearly in the rules that characters can never retreat sideway against the flow of the river Anduin.

The question is: can you attack sideway against the flow of the river (ex: from Rohan to Fangorn)?

Obviously this is only possible with Classic Aragorn and the Classic Witch King.


And Classic Nazgul and Treebeard (but they are more "teleports" than attacking sideways...

I can't retreat against the flow of the river? I've never noticed or played that... it would make Rohan a bit of a deathtrap for Dark (the retreat won't work!)
 
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Sean McCarthy
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I think you just can't use the river to retreat (you can't attack Rohan from Fangorn with Pippin, and then have him retreat "backwards" to Fangorn.
Similarly, one can't use the Tunnel to retreat.

I'm sure it's perfectly OK to attack with the Witch-King from Rohan to Fangorn, and then use "Retrteat Sideways" to go to Mirkwood.
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Philip Thomas
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Only played the base version. I knew you couldn't retreat through the tunnel, didn't know about the river, makes sense though. Also Frodo can't move down the river, get attacked and then "Retreat Sideways into Gondor"
 
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Alex

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I'm copy/pasting from the rules here (bottom of page 4, deluxe edition):

Quote:
A character can never retreat into a region occupied by
an enemy character or a region with the maximum number
of characters in it. Also, a character can never retreat
sideways in the mountains
or backwards through the
Tunnel of Moria or upstream against the Anduin river


It does not seem to make any exception...

Classic Nazgul and Treebeard, being "teleporters", can attack any space (or Fangorn), and the only condition is that they can only attack a single character; so yeah, I believe those two can attack against the river.

But can Classic Aragorn and Classic Witch King can? I'm not convinced...
 
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Philip Thomas
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Ok. Does the deluxe edition have a description of classic Witch King and classic Aragorn's abilities? The standard rules do, and they specifically mention you can't move sideways in the mountains. They do not mention the river. So I conclude they can be used to move sideways 'against the flow' of the Anduin (the same conclusion is reached by examiing the Dark Player's Retreat Sideways card, and classic frodo).
 
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Alex

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Well, it may seem obvious to you that Aragorn and the WK can attack upstream, but there is no proof for or against anywhere.

And the quote above is actually lifted from the rules and it clearly state that no retreat can be made against the river. Even if it is not specified in Frodo and the Retreat card's text, I don't know why this rule should be ignored.

I'm not trying to impose my POV here, just to understand the rules.
 
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Alex Rockwell
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SevenSpirits is correct.

The river doesnt matter at all, except that for your normal move, as light, you may move or attack from Mirkwood to Fangorn, or Fangorn to Rohan.
 
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Miguel (working on TENNISmind...)
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I've read both the basic and deluxe rules, and read about this in several forums (BGG and FFG), and the point is that "retreat" is something different from "movement". There are special abilities for MOVING, like the tunnel or river and some characters (Aragorn and WK). And special abilities for RETREATING, like Frodo. That's why the river and tunnel don't allow to retreat through them, only to move.

Of course the mountains forbid both retreat and movement sideways. I think I'm pretty sure about this, but...

 
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Daniel Edwards
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The rules distinguish between a move and a retreat. The quoted passage doesn't forbit a move (or attack or whatever you want to call it) sideways up the river only a retreat.

That does leave the question of whether frodo or the darks retreat card can effect a retreat sidewise against the river. The literal interpretation of the rule quotes seems to say no (although I dont have the rules and im not sure if there is an exception elsewhere). However that is a clear change from the rules for the classic version. I think the intent was simply to make it clear that you cant retreat backwards from the location the piece came from and the reference was inserted without thinking through all the intended consequences.

It also has quite a serious (and I think fairly silly) effect on game play so I would not play with it without a clear indication that was the intention.
 
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Miguel (working on TENNISmind...)
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The point is that the river provides an additional ability to move sideways (to the right) to characters not having it. And it applies only to Light, so forget about the WK or the retreat sideways card. Aragorn can attack from Fangorn to Rohan without the river, the others can't.

What the rules try to say is that the river cannot provide this additional ability to retreat upstream (sideways to the left) to characters not having it. Frodo has this ability, so he doesn't use the river, just retreats sideways like he would anywhere on the board (except mountains).

It's true that for new gamers it could have been intuitive that a character "advancing" along the river could have "moved back" upstream. That's why I think they wrote this sentence.

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franchi wrote:

The point is that the river provides an additional ability to move sideways (to the right) to characters not having it. And it applies only to Light, so forget about the WK or the retreat sideways card. Aragorn can attack from Fangorn to Rohan without the river, the others can't.

What the rules try to say is that the river cannot provide this additional ability to retreat upstream (sideways to the left) to characters not having it. Frodo has this ability, so he doesn't use the river, just retreats sideways like he would anywhere on the board (except mountains).

It's true that for new gamers it could have been intuitive that a character "advancing" along the river could have "moved back" upstream. That's why I think they wrote this sentence.



But the only reason to include this rule is if the Light could "retreat" downstream, which they can't. The Light retreat card allows a retreat backwords...

Oh, they're trying to say that "upstream" river movement is not backwords. I think they could have worded this better.

Nonetheless, I think a strict rules interpretation disallows an original Frodo, Faramir, Dark card, or Windlord retreat from Rohan to Fangorn or Fargorn to Mirkwood. It makes no sense to me, but I think any other interpretation is a "varient."

(edit)

As this "no retreating upstream against the Anduin river" rule is not mentioned in ANY of the retreating texts, while the mountains are specifically mentioned in ALL of the descriptions, this rule is probably an artifact of poor editing or bad rules explanation. I think they wanted to say that "upstream" is not "backwords", and did not intend to make an otherwise valid sideways retreat invalid.



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Matthew M
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Quote:
Oh, they're trying to say that "upstream" river movement is not backwords. I think they could have worded this better.


I'm fairly certain that this is precisely the intention of the clarification, though I can see how it muddied the waters more than it cleared anything up.

-MMM
 
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Reply from FFG:

1) Can Original Frodo or Faramir retreat against the River?
Yes

Can a dark Character?

No. Only the Fellowship player may use the river.

The rules state that no character can retreat upstream against
the Anduin river.

The rules state that no character may use "forward movement" in the opposite direction. Retreating is not considered forward movement.

OK, I think the FF guy misunderstood my "can a dark character retreat against the River" portion. I can't comprehend having the river cancel a dark retreat in Rohan.

Otherwise, it is as previously stated in the thread.
 
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Alex

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Argh! There is nothing clear at all here! cry
 
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Matthew M
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jellospike wrote:
Argh! There is nothing clear at all here! cry


It's always been clear as crystal to me

-MMM
 
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Eddie the Cranky Gamer
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Since it seems loosely related, I will ask my question here.

On Page 5 of the Deluxe rulebook, the example, first step, is as follows:

"Aragorn has jused used his ability to attack a Sauron character in Fangorn from Mirkwood. The Sauron player reveals that Aragorn has attacked Shelob. "

...but with the river, isn't an attack on Fangorn from Mirkwood normal and Aragorns special ability is irrelivant?
 
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apotheos wrote:
Since it seems loosely related, I will ask my question here.

On Page 5 of the Deluxe rulebook, the example, first step, is as follows:

"Aragorn has jused used his ability to attack a Sauron character in Fangorn from Mirkwood. The Sauron player reveals that Aragorn has attacked Shelob. "

...but with the river, isn't an attack on Fangorn from Mirkwood normal and Aragorns special ability is irrelivant?

You're completely right, not easy to notice without the board in front of you! They could have found a better example...
 
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Jim Spoto
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So the correct answer seems to have been conveyed a couple of times, such as Alexfrog, Octavian's, Oneiric's responses...

But to reiterate -

Ultimately, it's extremely simple. The river doesn't prohibit any normal rule or ability -- It simply allows movement or attack by the Good Guys in the downstream direction, for characters that can't normally move/attack laterally.

So if someone uses the river, they'd have to retreat in the normal "backwards" direction, in the general case.

No other good/evil rule or ability should be affected, including rules about sideways retreats (which are perfectly valid up/down stream).

They're simply saying that you can't use the river to make a backwards retreat into a lateral region, for characters that retreat backwards.
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Jim Cote
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bowman wrote:
Reply from FFG:

The rules state that no character can retreat upstream against the Anduin river.

The rules state that no character may use "forward movement" in the opposite direction. Retreating is not considered forward movement.


I find it funny that FFG is making a claim that the rules don't say exactly what they do say.
 
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Caleb
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Moving "with the river" is a special case of forward movement (that spacially "looks" sideways on the board). So if a character wants to retreat "backward", they CANNOT use the fact that the river allows a special type of forward movement to retreat "backwards" against the river (which spatially is a "sideways-looking" move).

Characters who can move/attack/retreat sideways can do so regardless of the presence of the river, since they are not "using" the river to do their move.

I think that's right. That's what I'm going with anyway.
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