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Caylus» Forums » Variants

Subject: The obvious Gate variant? rss

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Steve Cox
United Kingdom
Horsham
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This must surely have been suggested already, but I haven't seen it yet, so here goes:
Play the Gate as per the rules, but when you move your worker to another space, that space is activated immediately (subject to the location of the Provost/Bailif). This is useful if the space where you are planning to spend a block comes before the one where you are planning to acquire it, but the various risks associated with the tactic are such that you still have to think carefully about what you are doing. We played it that way in my last game, and the Gate actually got used for the first time ever. Unfortunately, its user (me) came last...
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Bryan Johnson
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It almost seems like this is the way the gate should have been designed and played all along. Does anyone know of any drawbacks to playing the gate like this? Any balance issues?
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Sean McCarthy
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Well, you would certainly have to make an exception for the castle. And what about the stables, another multi-spot building? It would also mess up the idiom that you can't get cloth before the joust.

Further, it would ruin a very frequent gate play, which is onto the gold, when the bailiff isn't at the gold yet. You need the provost moving to come before the resolution of the worker.

I think you should just leave the gate the way it is. It's very strong in 2-player, and occasionally useful for a cool play in 3-4 (maybe 5) player. If you want to strengthen the gate, you are missing the point, which is that it's not supposed to a building that gets used every turn (except in 2 player). It's an occasionally useful option.

If you really want to strengthen something, look at the weaver (cloth for points). That thing is pretty useless.
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Luca Iennaco
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I agree with Sean.
I like the Gate as it is and we never felt the need to modify it. I wonder why so many people are concerned to make it "more powerful"...

Have fun! meeple
 
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Phyll
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I agree with the others who poo-poo the idea. IMHO, it would make the gate far too powerful. The ability to perform an action without any (potential) interference from the provost would, in my mind, tip the balance for too much in the opposite direction.

Imagine being able to just pop your worker onto the Mine and collect a snappy gold, or onto a stone production building, or on whatever - any tile close to the provost where people would ordinarily pay to ensure that you don't get that action. This uncontested worker would skew everything. I don't think the Gate is broken now, but I think this would do it. Just my opinion.
 
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Bryan Johnson
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I understand everyone's positions regarding the gate. It seems like this option really could have some drawbacks or alter the game (even if slightly) the wrong way and for no real reason. The more I think about it, the more I believe it should remain as it is like most folks who play Caylus. I suppose if the gate is to be altered to make it a more desirable building in any way, I would suggest reducing the price to place a worker there by 1, as suggested in another thread.
 
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John Weber
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I have another idea. Redesign the board so the gate is the first space after the bridge. That means it will always be safe from the provost, which also means all the neutrals are at least to some extent theoretically vulnerable to the provost. This also means the gate player gets to play after the final position of the provost has been determined since all the provost moves would occur before the gate becomes active. Should the gate player not choose to go to the castle or a forward square (i.e. maybe they are all occupied or the provost got moved back), then they have the option of playing on a prior square for next turn-- sort of like playing on the #6 or #8 characters in Louis 14th.

Comments?
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Matthew M
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John Weber wrote:

Comments?


I believe this was suggested before and the designer chimed in to respond by saying that the Gate isn't in such a position because they didn't want it to be too powerful a space.

Take that for what you will.

-MMM
 
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Thomas Cauet
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SevenSpirits wrote:

If you really want to strengthen something, look at the weaver (cloth for points). That thing is pretty useless.


Did you really try it? I mean when the cloth farm comes early and you manage to build a stone building giving you an additionnal each turn (and eventually a peddler), you have a sufficient flow of cloth coming each turn, it's quite good to bring it. It means the game will be less open to "conversion" points (like you can see with early church or bank). Not adapted to every situation but can be really powerful.

This week-end I won the game (at a Caylus tournament) probably because of this building: 4 visits with 3-cloth exchange, I built no prestige building, and only one house in each section. 2 favors at total (3 then 4 money). Some people there had a high value of this building too.

To win Caylus is not having the highest score of all time, but the highest score of the game, according to the situation. I find funny how people tend to be disturbed if you don't build what they expected, and do "non-normal" game. Broad your mind a bit
 
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mike tauman

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Osidarta wrote:
SevenSpirits wrote:

If you really want to strengthen something, look at the weaver (cloth for points). That thing is pretty useless.


Did you really try it? I mean when the cloth farm comes early and you manage to build a stone building giving you an additionnal each turn (and eventually a peddler), you have a sufficient flow of cloth coming each turn, it's quite good to bring it. It means the game will be less open to "conversion" points (like you can see with early church or bank). Not adapted to every situation but can be really powerful.

This week-end I won the game (at a Caylus tournament) probably because of this building: 4 visits with 3-cloth exchange, I built no prestige building, and only one house in each section. 2 favors at total (3 then 4 money). Some people there had a high value of this building too.

To win Caylus is not having the highest score of all time, but the highest score of the game, according to the situation. I find funny how people tend to be disturbed if you don't build what they expected, and do "non-normal" game. Broad your mind a bit



Every building has a specific use, but some are more valuable than others.

The name of all the buildings escapes me, but the one where you convert Deniers into VP will be useful in all games down the stretch, as most players will have some available cash the last couple rounds of play.

However there may be many games where cloth is limited depending on when the productoin buildings are build and whether the 2-cloth building is built. Cloth is used at the joust, one of my favorite spaces on the board (and my dad as well) as well as building residences, even with the favor building track which saves you the coin but not the cube. Plus chances are 2/3 of castle batches use cloth (food + 2 other cubes and no one is using gold so its 2 of 3 stone wood cloth).

I guess I can see certain games having an excess of cloth, but I cannot see it being common that 4-5 straight turns people are fighting their way into the building to dump their cloth cubes for a few VP.
 
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Thomas Cauet
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blakjaks wrote:

I guess I can see certain games having an excess of cloth, but I cannot see it being common that 4-5 straight turns people are fighting their way into the building to dump their cloth cubes for a few VP.


The good point with this building is that you don't have to fight for it. If you built it, you are not in a hurry to go there, because people have plenty to do with their cloth and don't want to go there for a 2-cloth exchange (giving you 1 point). You have to use it in the same way as the jeweller. For the church (deniers against points), it's often not the same and bringing the church into play in some games is sometimes risky.
 
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Sean McCarthy
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Instead of going on the weaver, I could go an another late pick building like a single cube. Then I have 4 cubes instead of 6 points.

Except at the end of the game, I would prefer the cubes. 4 cubes is 4 points in the castle, plus 1/2 a favor in the final scoring (~1 point). That's 5 points already, but the important part is that you have more cubes to compete in the daily contest for most castle sections built.

That's not to say I would never build the weaver, but I would certainly treat it as a useless building until the last turn (very much like the alchemist).
 
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Thomas Cauet
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SevenSpirits wrote:
Instead of going on the weaver, I could go an another late pick building like a single cube. Then I have 4 cubes instead of 6 points.

When people already passed and not in the inn? Weaver is a nice "refuge", believe it or not.
 
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mike tauman

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Osidarta wrote:
blakjaks wrote:

I guess I can see certain games having an excess of cloth, but I cannot see it being common that 4-5 straight turns people are fighting their way into the building to dump their cloth cubes for a few VP.


The good point with this building is that you don't have to fight for it. If you built it, you are not in a hurry to go there, because people have plenty to do with their cloth and don't want to go there for a 2-cloth exchange (giving you 1 point). You have to use it in the same way as the jeweller. For the church (deniers against points), it's often not the same and bringing the church into play in some games is sometimes risky.


If you are money poor, then perhaps yes.

However the nice thing about bringing in a popular building early enough is, if other people use it, you will get free points.

Lets say you build the church. Over the next 4 turns, you take it twice and your opponent takes it twice. You have gained 2 points on him (assuming you both cash in the max coins for PP).

There is very little benefit in bringing in a building no one wants to be in other than the PP for building it. As someone else mentioned, yes there are times when someone passes and you want to place a worker cheaply just to avoid passing, but that occasional occurence isn't enough to justify building a building that neither you nor your opponents want.
 
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Thomas Cauet
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blakjaks wrote:

Lets say you build the church. Over the next 4 turns, you take it twice and your opponent takes it twice. You have gained 2 points on him (assuming you both cash in the max coins for PP).

Why I have always the feeling you're speaking of only 2-players Caylus? Well you're right on paper, it's better. But sorry to say that my games never happened to follow this classic line.

blakjaks wrote:
that occasional occurence isn't enough to justify building a building that neither you nor your opponents want.

If you're not even interested in the building (I talked about cloth-rich game with a stone production building producing cloth before the weaver), then what is the point of building it? I agree you cannot build it early in any games, like the church will always work in a way.

If you look at BSW, this building is almost never used. Then it seems almost natural to say on the internet that it is useless. I forced myself to play it and believe it could work, and we have funny, original games (I remember clearly 3 with weaver coming before bank or church).

You know I had really fun games of Puerto Rico building the university: it didn't prevent me to win once in a while.
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