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Subject: tile edges don't match! rss

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Isley
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Does it rankle anyone else that you can put two different tile edges next to eachother in this game? (put a green tile next to a brown tile) For some reason that is majorly putting me off of this game...it seems to be implemented a bit better in "The Castle" (at least visually)...I can let it go when I imagine I'm looking down at rooftops etc, but to see a green field just end in an abrupt straight line where a city starts just doesn't look right to me. Does this bother anyone else? Too bad to, I keep hearing this is the best version of Carcassonne, I'll probably pick up The Castle instead just because it looks cooler (and it's supposed to be a good game in its own right).
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Philip Thomas
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Yeah, that confused me at first, I tried to play it so they did match...

After a while you get used to it. It kind of makes sense, markets and cityscape mixing together and all.
 
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A L D A R O N
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The Castle is better, and doesn't have this problem, since the abrupt ends make visual sense.
 
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Philip Thomas
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The Castle is probably better. Reiner is a great games designer, after all. It is only two player, of course.
 
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Nick Fisk
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That's weird. This bit used to mention Shire Games, and tell you all how wonderful we are. But it seems to have got deleted. Let's see what happens this time ....
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Quote:
I'll probably pick up The Castle instead


But bear in mind that you don't have to match lawns to houses to towers in The Castle either, when placing tiles in that one.

 
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Eddie the Cranky Gamer
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thrasymachus wrote:
I can let it go when I imagine I'm looking down at rooftops etc, but to see a green field just end in an abrupt straight line where a city starts just doesn't look right to me.


In a typical urban setting this is common. Parks end at the backs of adjacent properties, and lawns end abruptly at the front of houses. The only thing it is incongruous with is the other versions of Carcassonne, but that should be easily overlooked.

It makes perfect internal sense, if you ask me.
 
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Isley
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Conceptually it is fine for a city and field to end abruptly, but the reason it doesn't make visual sense is because on a tile that has both city and field they are separated by a non-straight line with a bit of shading on the brown side. But when two different tile sides are placed next to eachother the result is an abrupt straight line that looks like two wrong tiles were placed next to each other and does not match any of the artwork on tiles with city and fields on them. In Carcassonne the Castle, when a tile is placed next to a different tile, at least it doesn't cause a picture that is incongrous with the rest of the artwork. The City may be the better game, but part of the fun in tile laying games for me is the feeling of constructing a new picture, and The City really seems to suffer in that respect from the pictures I've seen of it.
 
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Alex

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Well, it would be conceptually strange if they were fields, but they are supposed to be markets. And the mix of commercial/residential areas in a busy booming medieval town seems to make sense.

Not having played any other version of Carcassonne, the abrupt end of the markets do not seem weird to me, so maybe it's because you're too accustomed to the other games.
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Jed Ashforth
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To be honest, if it doesn't affect the gameplay, it's not really an issue is it? Nice when it all looks lovely together (Gardens of Alhambra) but doesn't affect the game when it's damn uuugleeee (Regular Alhambra).

And we're about the gameplay aren't we? All about the gameplay.

Don't let it put you off. this is an ace game, and you'll find a few minutes into the game that the aesthetics are attractive enough as it is. meeple
 
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Isley
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Heh...just...can't...let...it...go....

And true it really is about gameplay (I think regular carc looks better than Ark of the Covenant, but bought Covenant because I liked the gameplay better). But this is like playing Lord of the Rings with Monopoly pieces...you just can't do it!
 
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Eric Cable
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I played my first game last night not having played any other versions. I admit the "tile edges don't match" thing confused me at first, my I quickly realized it's a necessary to game play. Got used to it quickly.
 
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Daniel Troi
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I played my first game of Carcassonne the City today and we missed that you could put tiles that don´t really fit together. We where really confused afterwards when we realized that you could just put a green field next to a brown tile or other even worse examples. It makes absolutly no sense with this rules. It makes the tile placement way to easy and I think we will just skip playing like that. We want a challenge when we play.
 
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Jim Cote
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DanielTroi wrote:
We want a challenge when we play.

The challenge is not to find a place to put the tile. That's no more fun than Word Search puzzles. The challenge is to find a place to put the tile where it benefits you and hurts the opponent(s). Having more choices of places where to put tiles only increases the skill required.
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Daniel Troi
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I strongly disagree. It requires a lot more thinking when you have to match the tiles together and also take into account which tiles are still left to get further on in the game. That also challenge your memory. By the rules in this game it is way to easy to just put out the tiles. Of course it is fun to ruin things for your opponent but I don´t see it happen that much with the rules in this game. It is to easy to find way out when you always can put out a tile where it is empty. So we will for sure have our own house rules to make the game more playable and a lot more fun.
 
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Alex

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DanielTroi wrote:
I played my first game of Carcassonne the City today


Quote:
So we will for sure have our own house rules to make the game more playable and a lot more fun.


So, you've decided to make house rules after one play? Trust us, the game is plenty fun and challenging the way it is, and I suggest you try it some more times with an open mind before trying to fix what is not broken...
 
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Jim Cote
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DanielTroi wrote:
It requires a lot more thinking when you have to match the tiles together...

It only requires more thinking to find the places where the tiles can be placed. That has nothing to do with the skill of playing the game.
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Daniel Troi
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ekted wrote:
It only requires more thinking to find the places where the tiles can be placed. That has nothing to do with the skill of playing the game.


You are clearly forgeting that there only is a certain amount of every type of tile and how they will fit together with other tiles. That is the greatest challenge with Carcassonne, to make estimates if it is worth it to put a tile in a certain place so it will be possible to finish what you started to build. And as a consequence you want to trap your opponents so there is no tile that will fit. I don´t see that happening with this rules. Btw, do you even like basic Carcassonne? I really like that version and maybe that is why we are seeing things differently.
 
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Jim Cote
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DanielTroi wrote:
You are clearly forgeting that there only is a certain amount of every type of tile and how they will fit together with other tiles.

I am not forgetting anything. More choices/options equals more skill. I am not denying your right to like one game over another, or criticizing your tastes. But the statement that fewer choices means more skill is misleading at best.

DanielTroi wrote:
That is the greatest challenge with Carcassonne, to make estimates if it is worth it to put a tile in a certain place so it will be possible to finish what you started to build. And as a consequence you want to trap your opponents so there is no tile that will fit. I don´t see that happening with this rules.

Your loss then.

DanielTroi wrote:
Btw, do you even like basic Carcassonne? I really like that version and maybe that is why we are seeing things differently.

I rate basic Carc a 7. C&I and T&B make it better. The City is the best of them all.
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Matthew M
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Jim is spot-on with his assessment. In regular Carcassonne your choices of what to do with a tile are drastically limited to the tile itself. There are considerably more no-brainer player in the lighter blue-box Carcassonne than in the meatier Carc the City.

Having more options of what to do with a given tile makes for a far better game. It is easier to build up your own holdings but it is also easier to block off others. The tension comes from deciding which to do and how. It also makes the roads a much more important feature as they are the one thing that limit your freedom of placement.

Residences are more difficult to sneak into than fields in Carc, but they are also far less expansive. The same is true for markets vs. cities. Roads are a more viable source of points in the City, and the tension created by wall placements has absolutely no match in the base game or any of its expansions.



-MMM
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Alex

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Daniel, it sound like you might prefer the "puzzle" aspect of Carcassonne compared to the "strategy" aspect. It requires thinking, yes, but not the kind you usually associate with a good strategic boardgame, which is all about picking the right options among thousands (think about Tigris & Euphrates or Chess).

It's your thing, but you won't be convincing anyone here that the City isn't a very fine game on its own, one that doesn't require any tweaking.
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Daniel Troi
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I love the strategy aspect of Carcassonne, I don´t even like regular puzzles. But I like the strategy aspect as it is in the original Carcassonne game that is. Part of that strategy is to match the tiles together and that is totally lost here. When it almost doesn´t matter what tile you pick up, part of the fun is lost. It is like playing chess and all the playing pieces move exactly the same. It simply isn´t chess anymore. The same here!

But I guess I am talking to deaf ears here since only the ones who loves this game writes here. So I rest my case. This game was a big disappointment to me but I will play it with the matching tiles rules from the other Carcassonne games. At least that will give me some challenge and fun.
 
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Justin Puopolo
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DanielTroi wrote:
But I guess I am talking to deaf ears here since only the ones who loves this game writes here. So I rest my case. This game was a big disappointment to me but I will play it with the matching tiles rules from the other Carcassonne games. At least that will give me some challenge and fun.

I think this statement is quite unfair, i have read many posts to do with carc: the city from people who prefer other versions.

I myself though prefer the city to any other version as far too often in regular carc i felt that the choice of where to place a tile was obvious, reducing the skill and increasing the luck of the game. I am not denying that there is a lot of skill in carc (i have seen skilled players beat lesser skilled players regularly), i just prefer not to be a slave to the draw, something i believe was mitigated largely in the city.

I think the best thing to do in this situation is to simply look at these as two different games (which they are) and not all games are too everyones liking. I personally enjoy the extra choices as more choices means more chances for a player to make the wrong choice thus reward the skilled player, but i can understand how people might prefer the more limited choices in regular carc as it means the choices you do make carry much more weight.
 
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sunday silence
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[q="ekted"] More choices/options equals more skill. [q]

I do not think you are being quite fair to Daniel's pt. For instance in Pinochle the rules of following the lead are more stricter than in Bridge/Whist. YOu must play trump if out of the led suit, but not in Bridge.

But which game is more skillful? It's an open question? Just for the record I always hate that aspect of Pinochle, but it's promoters have a pt..
 
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Jim Cote
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sundaysilence wrote:
ekted wrote:
More choices/options equals more skill.

I do not think you are being quite fair to Daniel's pt. For instance in Pinochle the rules of following the lead are more stricter than in Bridge/Whist. YOu must play trump if out of the led suit, but not in Bridge.

But which game is more skillful? It's an open question? Just for the record I always hate that aspect of Pinochle, but it's promoters have a pt..

Bridge is about 100x more skillful than Pinochle, and not only because you have more options when you don't have any of the led suit.
 
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sunday silence
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Oh well yeah there is bidding too...

Forge that. Perhaps Bridge is not a good example because there are so many more possibilities. But consider Carc. played the way Daniel is arguing for vs your way. Wouldnt the decision tree just be shaped differently?

If Dan plays it his way, maybe he has 10 plays for next move. Under your way you maybe have 100. Now you multiply by the next move/tile play which is even larger since there is a random draw, the next move might be 500 for Daniel and 5,000 for you.

But the human mind only has so many nodes it can process. Both you and Daniel will have to limit yourself to X number of decision nodes in your tree. Daniel's tree may go deeper because his initial choices are more limited. Your maybe a broader tree, becuase well it has to be. But given that for both of you; you are going to run out of processing capacity you can only analyze X number of modes.

What is wrong this argument? I dont get it.

BTW: Ekted you should check the Hannibal; RvC/Variants for my comments on your battle cards idea..
 
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