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Twilight Struggle» Forums » Rules

Subject: Red Scare + Quagmire = Ugh ? rss

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Tony M
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Ugh. I had this one come up in tonights game. I was playing the USA.

For the final turn, my opponent headlines Red Scare. All of my ops were at -1. Unfortunately, with the exception of one 3 point card, my entire hand was 1s and 2s. I had no scoring cards. Turn one, I play my 3 pointer, and fail the roll.

We played that red scare disqualified all my remaining cards from play. As such, the Soviet Union played action rounds 2-7 with the USA passing each round for its action.

Did we do this right ?

IE: Does the -1 from Red Scare impact the ops value which can be fed into Quagmire ?

Thanks,
Tony
 
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Philip Thomas
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Yes, you were playing right, very unpleasant it is too...
 
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Andrew Young
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And if you never have, you should. These things are fun and fun is good.
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Yikes.

shake
 
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L. Scott Johnson
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Right.

The -1 from Red Scare/Purge, the +1 from Containment, and the +1 from Breshnev Doctrine affect the Ops value of every card associated with the "target" superpower for all purposes (playing as Ops, playing as events, discarding, etc.) except:

1) No Ops bonus is applied for the MilOps received from War Events
2) The US player doesn't get the Breshnev modifier applied to CIA created when the USSR player plays it for Ops (If the USSR player has Breshnev bonus and plays CIA Created for 2 Ops, then the US player gets only 1 Ops from the event, not the 2 Ops the card has as played).
3) (Similar to 2) The USSR player doesn't get the Containment modifier applied to Lone Gunman when the US plays it for Ops.

(Did I miss any exceptions?)
 
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Brad Miller
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Yep. Sucks.

I've had that same series of events occur as well, though not on the last turn. USSR won an Auto-victory on the next turn...
 
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Philip Thomas
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While we are on the subject do Quagmire and Bear Trap carry on in the following turn? If not you can play them as Action 7 and laugh. If so they are really nasty...
 
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Luca Iennaco
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Philip Thomas wrote:
While we are on the subject do Quagmire and Bear Trap carry on in the following turn?


Yes.
I've read that more than once in other threads here on BGG.
 
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L. Scott Johnson
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Philip Thomas wrote:
While we are on the subject do Quagmire and Bear Trap carry on in the following turn? If not you can play them as Action 7 and laugh. If so they are really nasty...


Yes. The underline gives some hint to that. But it is confirmed on CSW:
http://talk.consimworld.com/WebX?14@166.YQDob6unKQG.6@.1dcfd...


Also, Q/BT continue past the "until no appropriate cards remain" clause in card text. Instead of that card text, use just "repeat until successful (die roll < 5)."

Also note that Q/BT have been changed to prevent the target player from taking his or her normal action (except to play Scoring cards when the number of action rounds the target has left is not more than the number of Scoring cards he or she holds).
 
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Ivano Rosa
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Rulemonger wrote:
Right.

1) No Ops bonus is applied for the MilOps received from War Events
(Did I miss any exceptions?)


see the FAQ
 
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L. Scott Johnson
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LordYupa wrote:
Rulemonger wrote:
Right.

1) No Ops bonus is applied for the MilOps received from War Events
(Did I miss any exceptions?)


see the FAQ


The only FAQ I've found is a .doc

But back to the point: Did I miss any exceptions?
Or are you trying to say that the MilOps gained from playing War Events as events *are* adjusted?
 
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Ivano Rosa
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Rulemonger wrote:
LordYupa wrote:
Rulemonger wrote:
Right.

1) No Ops bonus is applied for the MilOps received from War Events
(Did I miss any exceptions?)


see the FAQ


The only FAQ I've found is a .doc

But back to the point: Did I miss any exceptions?
Or are you trying to say that the MilOps gained from playing War Events as events *are* adjusted?


Oops, i cut a part of message

"right, The rules for war card says "Operations" but the card says a "number". So apply rule 5.5

See the FAQ"





 
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L. Scott Johnson
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LordYupa wrote:
sorry my previous message should be:

"right, The rules for war card says "Operation" but the card says a "number". So apply rule 5.5

See the FAQ"


Well, 5.5 doesn't come to bear directly in that case, since they're not directly contradictory (and thus a pure reading of the rules would yield applying them both), but yes, Jason has ruled that the 8.2.3 and 8.2.4 rules describing the movement of the MilOps tracker are to be ignored.

See http://www.boardgamegeek.com/article/780385#780385 (and the surrounding topic) for more on the 5.5 angle.
 
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Tony M
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The more I think about it, the more I think Red Scare might be overpowered.

* This card can show up 2-3 different times during the game.

* Play of this card (usually)causes a loss of 6-7 operations points to the opponent.

If only one player gets it 2-3 times, they will be up net 18-21 ops over their opponent. Thats huge.

In addition:

* Limits the cards which can be played by Bear Trap/Quagmire to 3s.

This can cause a player to miss an entire turn.

* Limits the cards which can be played for Blockade to 4s.

ADDING THIS AFTER POSTING:

* Also affects which cards can be jettisoned after the space race.

This can cause the US to get booted from West Germany in turn one if an opponent gets Red Scare and blockade and the US has no 4s, leaving only Italy for the US.

Does anyone else have problems with this card possibly introducing too much luck to the game, or is it just me here ?

-T
 
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Philip Thomas
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Well usually you play at least one event for its effect, and you can do a lot more of that if you are being Purged.

But yes it is a bit good, one game I played it in turn 2, turn 3, and turn 4 (via Salt Negotiations). My oppponent lost.

The Blockade point is quite compelling...
 
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L. Scott Johnson
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It doesn't seem too far gone to me.

I'd prefer it if it just affected cards played by the opposing player (not discards as well -- like for Q/BT), but that's not a deal-breaker for me, either.
 
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Jon W
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tmarozas wrote:
The more I think about it, the more I think Red Scare might be overpowered.

I agree. If the US gets it, then it's almost workable, but in the hands of the USSR more than once, it's over. At the very least, the effect should be confined to cards played as Ops only (Coups, Realigns, Influence), so any discards (Quagmire, Blockade, Space Race) would be unaffected.

But I'm tempted to go further, as this card just isn't fun to play with or against. It could be "minimum of two" (instead of one), or limited to the next X actions (two?), or limited to only friendly cards (so you don't get the double whammy of having to play opponent events and get reduced Ops), or whatever. Though I staunchly resist house rules, I really feel this card is out of line.
 
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L. Scott Johnson
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Jon Waddington wrote:
At the very least, the effect should be confined to cards played as Ops only (Coups, Realigns, Influence), so any discards (Quagmire, Blockade, Space Race) would be unaffected.


Note that a space race attempt is a play, not a discard.

That is Operations can be used in the following ways: to place influence, to make realignment rolls, to attempt coups, or to attempt advancement in the space race. (6.0 and 6.4.1)
 
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Jon W
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Been a long while since this thread (and thank you for the Space Race clarification), but I just wanted to reinforce my earlier remarks about Red Scare in particular. Even with the new, spiffy 4 Ops it's a no-brainer headline or first round event. It's still no fun, either in your hand or your opponent's.

I'm still really loving the game, and I can chalk the few aspects I'm disappointed with up to taste, but I think this card is objectively bad.
 
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Colin Hunter
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I agree it does seem very powerful. I lost a game a week ago (I was the us). I played ask not what your country can do for you and discarded most of my russian events as headline and my opponent played red scare. His first action was quagmire and I only had 1 3 ops card in hand (my redraw drew friendly events, but almost all 2 ops). Needless to say I rolled a 5+, game over. Russia took all of europe and most asia. Next turn played europe scoring and won... It seems that this same combo gets played a lot. I don't know if it is broken, but i am certaintly much more aware of combo and would never give up so many high ops cards again even if they are russian. Live and learn.
 
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Dark Foufou
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Are you sure ?
If I read "5.3 When a card played as an Event requires the play or discard of another card of a specific value,...", I understand that playing is not the same then discarding.
So, Red Scare Purge said "All further Operations cards played ..." and Quagmire said "..., US player must discard an Operations card ..."
For me, Red Scare Purge does not apply to Quagmire.
 
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Philip Thomas
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Warsaw Pact shouldn't be a problem, unless your opponent invested heavily in Eastern Europe at the beginning of the game, which is simply lack of knowledge of the cards...
 
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Jon W
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brougnouff wrote:
Are you sure ?

I'm not sure the rules support it, but the FAQ, which has been blessed by the designers, is quite clear: "A card with a reduced ops number is considered reduced for ALL purposes. The only exception is that operational points from events are not affected."
 
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Dark Foufou
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OK, I agree but I don't play this rule because it's death for this player.
It's like when I play Magic and there is a combo who kill the game !
I don't like ultimate combo and specially in a boardgame or strategic game soblue
 
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Olivier Collard
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Rulemonger wrote:

The -1 from Red Scare/Purge, the +1 from Containment, and the +1 from Breshnev Doctrine affect the Ops value of every card associated with the "target" superpower for all purposes (playing as Ops, playing as events, discarding, etc.)

I have a question about Containment. It says "All further Operations cards played by US this turn add one to their value (to a maximum of 4)." I play the USA and my opponent plays "Grain Sales to Soviets". I return the card, so I can use the OPs normally ... but does Containment work for these OPs ?

Containment says it works for cards "played by US this turn", and, technically, "Grain Sales to Soviets" was not played by US.
 
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brian
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Containment effect the Ops used by the player - not just the cards played by the player. So if Containment is in effect, any time the US uses operation points, they get a +1 to the value.

On the flip side, if the US plays a card and the USSR gets to use the Op points somehow, they do not get the extra point even though the US played the card.

The wording would have been better to say any Op points used[/] by the US gains +1. Not necessarily cards [i]played.
 
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